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Beebe 

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So as a matter of interest - I haven't looked around to see if I can find any numbers on the internet - One tends to know only the electricity consumption of ones own house...I am really interested in a straw poll to see what other peoples consumption is like.

We have solar water, and a wood-burner which also contributes to water heating and provides all the space heating. Water is topped up in the morning by an immersion element. There is an electric shower, and cooking is all electric. I work at home, and my servers run 24/7. The last weeks average usage has been 18kWh/day.
We have a holiday cottage, which, with random occupants every week, consumes about 70kWh/week.
 

Boston Bees 

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So as a matter of interest - I haven't looked around to see if I can find any numbers on the internet - One tends to know only the electricity consumption of ones own house...I am really interested in a straw poll to see what other peoples consumption is like.

We have solar water, and a wood-burner which also contributes to water heating and provides all the space heating. Water is topped up in the morning by an immersion element. There is an electric shower, and cooking is all electric. I work at home, and my servers run 24/7. The last weeks average usage has been 18kWh/day.
About 4500 kwh of electric and 25000 kwh of gas per year
 

roche 

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We have a holiday cottage, which, with random occupants every week, consumes about 70kWh/week.
Thanks for the reply Beebe, does that include water and space heating?
 

Beebe 

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Thanks for the reply Beebe, does that include water and space heating?
That's just operating the lighting, TV, a small bathroom underfloor heating element and perhaps the occasional immersion top-up as it's oil C/H. It's very well insulated and oil costs are incredibly small.
 

enrico 

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I use 13000 kW a year. I have 32 PV panels, a four bedroom house with an air source heat pump, and a one bedroom annex with an indoor heated swimming pool that is used all year and an electric car. Both premises are totally electric but I do have a woodburner. Because of the RHI for the ASHP I have not paid an electric bill in the last five years and have two years left. I am £2000 in profit at the moment. I should say my RHI covers the electric bill rather than saying I haven't had a bill! I get £150 a month for the RHI
 

cwinte 

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So as a matter of interest - I haven't looked around to see if I can find any numbers on the internet - One tends to know only the electricity consumption of ones own house...I am really interested in a straw poll to see what other peoples consumption is like.

We have solar water, and a wood-burner which also contributes to water heating and provides all the space heating. Water is topped up in the morning by an immersion element. There is an electric shower, and cooking is all electric. I work at home, and my servers run 24/7. The last weeks average usage has been 18kWh/day.
You're right on the better efficiency of the vac tubes etc but it's a big thing to set up: location, circulation fluid loop, smart sensors & controls, freeze isolation, tank to hold pre-hot water. There is HeatStore (I think) who specialise in integrated heat management from multiple sources and multiple uses, possibly with heat pumps in there for parts of the system.
My transformer solution was a £50 10 minute job to set up and no risks.
I still might look at the vac tubes as part of a next generation, post hydrocarbons, set of solutions.... maybe a heatStore etc.

We have a wood burner but stand alone (no water heating etc) for the cheer and reduction in gas use, only using lightly so far as it has been warmish. Like you I have multiple computers on 24/7 but they are fairly power efficient.
Octopus recently told me my annual numbers are Electricity 2,982 kWh (usage they see but I get free PV power over that), Gas 21,191 kWh (gas cooking, hot water & CH), 4 bed solid wall house. October was about 10kwH per day here.
If only "they" would come up with some guidelines and standards I be pleased to get on with external wall insulation and a much lower carbon heat system. This house bleeds heat despite me having time switched thermostatic valves on rads etc to minimise heat waste. Meanwhile I may do a cheap and cheerful insulate of the external wall around the wood stove, a crude test last winter showed the extra bricks I built into the chimney can keep enough heat to still be 30C in the mornings in the winter if there is some insulation outside (it is under a lean-to shed and I plan to make a new work bench with tool and shelving on the insulated wall area... Again a one day £100 approach to doing something sooner rather than wait for Godot.

I think gov should mandate and support local bodies to identify targets target groups of housing stock (lots of these type, and they're poorly insulated so a target group). Support can then be directed to the best targets first and a set of approved methods/materials/standards/design guides created for each target group which contractors can work to large scale with economies of scale and security for the home owners.
But their most recent bill on Housing and Energy seems to have been slated, not had time to find and read it.
 

cwinte 

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I use 13000 kW a year. I have 32 PV panels, a four bedroom house with an air source heat pump, and a one bedroom annex with an indoor heated swimming pool that is used all year and an electric car. Both premises are totally electric but I do have a woodburner. Because of the RHI for the ASHP I have not paid an electric bill in the last five years and have two years left. I am £2000 in profit at the moment. I should say my RHI covers the electric bill rather than saying I haven't had a bill! I get £150 a month for the RHI
Would be interested to hear more... ASHP feeds underfloor system? (that's what I've seen most often). Could you lay out a rough what was done, budgets and what grants etc came in to help etc? Did you consider ground source HP (meant to double the efficiency) and why rejected?
How much wood burn p.a. roughly?
 

enrico 

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Would be interested to hear more... ASHP feeds underfloor system? (that's what I've seen most often). Could you lay out a rough what was done, budgets and what grants etc came in to help etc? Did you consider ground source HP (meant to double the efficiency) and why rejected?
How much wood burn p.a. roughly?
I have a large lounge diner that is underfloor. The rest is radiators. They are on two different zones but all rads have thermostatic valves. Booth zones have room stats. The RHI finishes in march and after that it is a lump sum of £5000 I think with no more RHI so if you are thinking of ASHP then do it quickly. The RHI is based on the latest EPC on your house within last five years. The worse the EPC the higher the RHI. You must have insulation unless that is impossible. GSHP was not for me although a neighbour has it. I find I am able to control and ASHP better. Cost depends on what you are having done but between £10000 and £20000. First of all you need to get a proper heat loss survey. That will tell you if you need larger radiators, etc. And determine the size of the pump. I offset costs during day with PV panels and during evening with low cost electricity. I turn my heat off at night because house is well insulated and it only takes an hour to warm up in the mornings. Manufacturers don't recommend this but I have done many tests and this is most cost efficient for me. My woodburner in this house is a small 4 kW one and gives a pleasant warmth and a focus. Burns about 6 logs every evening. My last house had three woodburners going, one 24/7 but we had our own woodland and that was hard work preparing wood a year or two in advance. Seasoned logs are essential for low emissions. I get a small FIT payment on my PV panels but that is no longer available. I get 3p per kW for 50% of all electricity produced but you can get up to 5p with some providers but you now need a meter. If I went down that road I would lose out because I feed very little back to the grid. I put excess into my pool and into a storage heater so I use nearly everything and then get paid the 3p for 50% of it. My RHI more than pays for my electricity bill. If you ignore my installation costs then I am in profit but installation of PV and ASHP was about £20000, but I needed to replace an old oil boiler and radiators and install under floor anyway so those costs can be deducted. It was all a no brained for me and I now have an old 1850 house that is as warm as any modern one at minimal ongoing cost! But......everyone has different requirements so it may not suit you! Get loads of quotes and get a GOOD installer who knows what they are talking about! A general plumber is no good!
Hope this helps
 

roche 

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You're right on the better efficiency of the vac tubes etc but it's a big thing to set up: location, circulation fluid loop, smart sensors & controls, freeze isolation, tank to hold pre-hot water. There is HeatStore (I think) who specialise in integrated heat management from multiple sources and multiple uses, possibly with heat pumps in there for parts of the system.
My transformer solution was a £50 10 minute job to set up and no risks.
I still might look at the vac tubes as part of a next generation, post hydrocarbons, set of solutions.... maybe a heatStore etc.

We have a wood burner but stand alone (no water heating etc) for the cheer and reduction in gas use, only using lightly so far as it has been warmish. Like you I have multiple computers on 24/7 but they are fairly power efficient.
Octopus recently told me my annual numbers are Electricity 2,982 kWh (usage they see but I get free PV power over that), Gas 21,191 kWh (gas cooking, hot water & CH), 4 bed solid wall house. October was about 10kwH per day here.
If only "they" would come up with some guidelines and standards I be pleased to get on with external wall insulation and a much lower carbon heat system. This house bleeds heat despite me having time switched thermostatic valves on rads etc to minimise heat waste. Meanwhile I may do a cheap and cheerful insulate of the external wall around the wood stove, a crude test last winter showed the extra bricks I built into the chimney can keep enough heat to still be 30C in the mornings in the winter if there is some insulation outside (it is under a lean-to shed and I plan to make a new work bench with tool and shelving on the insulated wall area... Again a one day £100 approach to doing something sooner rather than wait for Godot.

I think gov should mandate and support local bodies to identify targets target groups of housing stock (lots of these type, and they're poorly insulated so a target group). Support can then be directed to the best targets first and a set of approved methods/materials/standards/design guides created for each target group which contractors can work to large scale with economies of scale and security for the home owners.
But their most recent bill on Housing and Energy seems to have been slated, not had time to find and read it.
You are right I guess - my solar thermal install was based around a condemned boiler and a tired tank, so it all required replacement anyway. Once you are that far, adding a woodburner into the mix is pretty much a no-brainer. I do all the solar install myself, as it is something the government does not yet meddle with, unless you went for an install grant (no longer available), in which case the costs just go crazy. But solar thermal is still the best bang for the buck that I can see.
Standards are an interesting thing. Some people treat them as aspirational, others as a minimum acceptable from which to improve...
I agree entirely with targetting particular housing stock. Much more effective.
The most recent Housing and Energy legislation proposal I noticed was interesting in that it placed an onus on owners to implement improvements. I know of at least one MP who owns a lot of rental housing stock, who voted against...
 

Gilberdyke John 

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You're right on the better efficiency of the vac tubes etc but it's a big thing to set up: location, circulation fluid loop, smart sensors & controls, freeze isolation, tank to hold pre-hot water. There is HeatStore (I think) who specialise in integrated heat management from multiple sources and multiple uses, possibly with heat pumps in there for parts of the system.
My transformer solution was a £50 10 minute job to set up and no risks.
I still might look at the vac tubes as part of a next generation, post hydrocarbons, set of solutions.... maybe a heatStore etc.

We have a wood burner but stand alone (no water heating etc) for the cheer and reduction in gas use, only using lightly so far as it has been warmish. Like you I have multiple computers on 24/7 but they are fairly power efficient.
Octopus recently told me my annual numbers are Electricity 2,982 kWh (usage they see but I get free PV power over that), Gas 21,191 kWh (gas cooking, hot water & CH), 4 bed solid wall house. October was about 10kwH per day here.
If only "they" would come up with some guidelines and standards I be pleased to get on with external wall insulation and a much lower carbon heat system. This house bleeds heat despite me having time switched thermostatic valves on rads etc to minimise heat waste. Meanwhile I may do a cheap and cheerful insulate of the external wall around the wood stove, a crude test last winter showed the extra bricks I built into the chimney can keep enough heat to still be 30C in the mornings in the winter if there is some insulation outside (it is under a lean-to shed and I plan to make a new work bench with tool and shelving on the insulated wall area... Again a one day £100 approach to doing something sooner rather than wait for Godot.

I think gov should mandate and support local bodies to identify targets target groups of housing stock (lots of these type, and they're poorly insulated so a target group). Support can then be directed to the best targets first and a set of approved methods/materials/standards/design guides created for each target group which contractors can work to large scale with economies of scale and security for the home owners.
But their most recent bill on Housing and Energy seems to have been slated, not had time to find and read it.
About 15 years ago my indirect hot water cylinder was becoming corroded around the bottom seam. It had the primary coil heated by our oil fired boiler but when I replaced it I opted for a taller cylinder with two primary coils. The higher one heated by the oil boiler and I bought a vacuum tube solar water panel with an expansion vessel, controls pack and circulation pump. I had to provide primary pipework, cabling and mounting bolts. I could have gone down the grant support road but it would have cost far far more. Government support is all very well but installation companies wring every last drop of profit from the funds they know are available.
During summer the solar hot water provides all the heat the cylinder and hence hot water taps need. During the winter it warms the incoming water at the bottom of the cylinder so reduces the energy required from the boiler and hence saves on fuel costs. Instead of mounting the panel on the roof I made up some L shaped brackets to secure the panel to the South facing gable end wall of the house and used lengths of screwed rod right through into the loft space to support the panel.
I also have solar voltaic panels on the sloping roof which I had to use an approved contractor to provide and install to be eligible for the FIT payments (first tranche so cost was high although the FIT rate was similarly high and with inflation over the years is currently equivalent to 58 pence per unit including an allowance for deemed export. The current non FIT schemes just don't make economic sense.
 

Newbeeneil 

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So as a matter of interest - I haven't looked around to see if I can find any numbers on the internet - One tends to know only the electricity consumption of ones own house...I am really interested in a straw poll to see what other peoples consumption is like.

We have solar water, and a wood-burner which also contributes to water heating and provides all the space heating. Water is topped up in the morning by an immersion element. There is an electric shower, and cooking is all electric. I work at home, and my servers run 24/7. The last weeks average usage has been 18kWh/day.
I have a 3 bed semi with 4kw of PV and a 9kw ASHP. Due to the high insulation of the property the actual heat required from the system is only 5.4kw.
I have the smallest log burner available (4.5kw) in the lounge but if this is working flat out we have to open all the internal doors in the house to dissipate the heat! 😀.
My energy use is 5000kwh of electricity and 200kwh of gas (SWMBO prefers cooking on gas)
Due to the orientation of the house the 4kw of PV only produces c 3000kwh of electricity pa but by my last calculations I was using about 90% of everything I produce during the year. (The typical usage is generally accepted as being in the region of 30% which is why energy companies are happy to pay for 50% of energy produced.)
I use a Solar Iboost (export energy diverted to immersion) coupled with an oversized tank to store excess energy but would prefer a battery system if it was financially viable (which it isn't at present).
The secret of heat pumps is a well insulated house as they work at temperatures about 50% of those in a boiler system (35deg as apposed to 70deg.) Much as I think they are the right way to go to combat global warming I hate to think how the British housing stock will cope with them when no new gas boilers are allowed in the next few years.
 

roche 

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I have a 3 bed semi with 4kw of PV and a 9kw ASHP. Due to the high insulation of the property the actual heat required from the system is only 5.4kw.
I have the smallest log burner available (4.5kw) in the lounge but if this is working flat out we have to open all the internal doors in the house to dissipate the heat! 😀.
My energy use is 5000kwh of electricity and 200kwh of gas (SWMBO prefers cooking on gas)
Due to the orientation of the house the 4kw of PV only produces c 3000kwh of electricity pa but by my last calculations I was using about 90% of everything I produce during the year. (The typical usage is generally accepted as being in the region of 30% which is why energy companies are happy to pay for 50% of energy produced.)
I use a Solar Iboost (export energy diverted to immersion) coupled with an oversized tank to store excess energy but would prefer a battery system if it was financially viable (which it isn't at present).
The secret of heat pumps is a well insulated house as they work at temperatures about 50% of those in a boiler system (35deg as apposed to 70deg.) Much as I think they are the right way to go to combat global warming I hate to think how the British housing stock will cope with them when no new gas boilers are allowed in the next few years.
NBN - Is the water heating gas?
 

Newbeeneil 

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NBN - Is the water heating gas?
No, the water is either heated using the heat pump. ( it uses a specific program that heats the large tank to 42 deg. - a temperature that is efficient but rarely needs mixing with cold for a bath or shower.) or uses excess PV power to heat the large tank to temperatures approaching 75deg.
During the summer the heat pump rarely switches on as no heating is required and the PV provides almost all the hot water unless we get a period of 2-3 days of cloud.
 
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cwinte 

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I could have gone down the grant support road but it would have cost far far more. Government support is all very well but installation companies wring every last drop of profit from the funds they know are available.
...I made up some L shaped brackets to secure the panel to the South facing gable end wall of the house and used lengths of screwed rod right through into the loft space to support the panel.
So with a pump I guess the panels can be sited more flexibly (as opposed to passive thermal circulation where tank must be above panels) which makes a lot of sense.
How many sq m. of panels do you have and would more be better? (Always seems like a good source for heat pumps to me)
Water might freeze so what is the circulating fluid - just added antifreeze like a car radiator? - or are there other protections?
Grants etc:
Yes I'm often caught unsure which way to go on things, just do it myself with more care and much cheaper or the grant routes. Many of which are risky as RHI seems to be do it first and apply after, and others are a pain with short windows of opportunity and contractor pressures/problems. There was a R4 slot the other day where people talked about all the ways they were let down by contractors after very long waits and closing time windows. Even HMG added a year when they realised the last incentive was just about impossible to do it the time available and so extended by a year.
New scheme offers very limited numbers given the nationwide task out there so it is no way near a plan to make significant changes, more of a test pilot it seems. I have heard talk (Clean Heat Grant: further policy design proposals) of the need for stable and suitable delivery and moving it to Ofgem as a longer term, or ongoing process, which sounds like some sense at last.
 

cwinte 

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I have a 3 bed semi with 4kw of PV and a 9kw ASHP. Due to the high insulation of the property the actual heat required from the system is only 5.4kw.
I have the smallest log burner available (4.5kw) in the lounge but if this is working flat out we have to open all the internal doors in the house to dissipate the heat! 😀.
My energy use is 5000kwh of electricity and 200kwh of gas (SWMBO prefers cooking on gas)
The 5MwH is the amount bought in plus your own production on top?
Any idea how much of the 5.4kw ASHP comes out of PV?
In winter the PV power and hours are low and possibly do not overlap heat need unless you accumulate heat during the day have enough thermal mass & insulation to stay warm at night or reduce heat needs. Can that be, or is it, that sort of thing designed in, programmed in; part of the plan and discussions?

Our burner is also to the small end and likewise tends heat the house with the lounge door open, plus I only burn 3 or 4 logs per night by running down between logs, 5 or 6 kg maybe so nothing like flat out. I do get complaints that the heating has not come on and so some room is not warm enough :( but then our insulation is currently really poor with solid walls.
 

enrico 

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The 5MwH is the amount bought in plus your own production on top?
Any idea how much of the 5.4kw ASHP comes out of PV?
In winter the PV power and hours are low and possibly do not overlap heat need unless you accumulate heat during the day have enough thermal mass & insulation to stay warm at night or reduce heat needs. Can that be, or is it, that sort of thing designed in, programmed in; part of the plan and discussions?

Our burner is also to the small end and likewise tends heat the house with the lounge door open, plus I only burn 3 or 4 logs per night by running down between logs, 5 or 6 kg maybe so nothing like flat out. I do get complaints that the heating has not come on and so some room is not warm enough :( but then our insulation is currently really poor with solid walls.
Obviously depends on the type of wood and the size of the logs!
 

Martimart 

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I've always used Certainly Wood for my logs, get them in the summer when they are very slightly cheaper... I need to buy a mixed woodland!
 

roche 

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True, that's why I thought to estimate weight. Oak/Beech mostly and well dried, 2yr plus.
Interesting thing thing about wood is that the calorific value is almost solely about weight and moisture content.
 

roche 

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So with a pump I guess the panels can be sited more flexibly (as opposed to passive thermal circulation where tank must be above panels) which makes a lot of sense.
How many sq m. of panels do you have and would more be better? (Always seems like a good source for heat pumps to me)
Water might freeze so what is the circulating fluid - just added antifreeze like a car radiator? - or are there other protections?
Grants etc:
Yes I'm often caught unsure which way to go on things, just do it myself with more care and much cheaper or the grant routes. Many of which are risky as RHI seems to be do it first and apply after, and others are a pain with short windows of opportunity and contractor pressures/problems. There was a R4 slot the other day where people talked about all the ways they were let down by contractors after very long waits and closing time windows. Even HMG added a year when they realised the last incentive was just about impossible to do it the time available and so extended by a year.
New scheme offers very limited numbers given the nationwide task out there so it is no way near a plan to make significant changes, more of a test pilot it seems. I have heard talk (Clean Heat Grant: further policy design proposals) of the need for stable and suitable delivery and moving it to Ofgem as a longer term, or ongoing process, which sounds like some sense at last.
A pump makes it all much simpler. We have about 6 sqm. Using a secondary circulating fluid with an antifreeze added to water - I need to check what the antifreeze is, but I think it may not be standard automotive.

The other thing the escalates costs for grant funding is that the equipment often needs type approval to qualify for the grant. The importers will then hike the price of the equipment significantly on the basis of the approval. Equivalent performance can usually be found with non-approved equipmetn(nothing to do with safety, only performance is being tested) at a fraction of the cost.
 

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