Are all scrub Queens poor?

[dickbowyer]

I had laying workers so made up an adjacent nuc with 5 brood frames (2 BIAS /3 stores) and introduced bought marked queen in cage the following day into that nuc. I was hoping to establish a new laying queen in the nuc and then shake out laying worker hive to salvage the fliers to return to nuc hive. Checking 10 days later she was gone i.e. cage fondant eaten through and no marked queen but did find 4 sealed poor looking queen cells. All looked a bit bleak but I shook out the laying worker hive who returned to the original hive now containing nuc frames/undrawn frames and I left 2 sealed queen cells and returned 3 weeks later to find eggs a bit scattered and occasional doubles. 10 days later I have sealed worker cells, a nice looking brood pattern on 4 frames and a very small Queen. Just because she is small, is she duff?

 

[richardbees]

"Just because she is small, is she duff?"

No, not in my experience

 

[dickbowyer]

That is what I had hoped but noted she was pretty titchy!

 

[mbc]

Some famous American beekeepers routinely practice "walk away splits" which essentially rely on emergency queen cells to expand their hive numbers - America is a long way away though

 

[sugarbush]

Some famous American beekeepers routinely practice "walk away splits" which essentially rely on emergency queen cells to expand their hive numbers - America is a long way away though

It is a long way and I don't know how your queen industry functions, but here a emergency queen is usually better then a commercially produced one.

In the US queens are reared in the south in large numbers at the same locations, they are grafted in large quantities and the larva grafted isn't always an appropriate age. Then they are open mated in large quantities and the drone population isn't always great so you end up with queens of poor breeding.

The bees on the other hand always pick larva of the appropriate age and in late summer, when the queen hatches out, there are plenty of drones around to mate with... So the quality of the queen is generally better.

As a common practice if I buy a nuc or package from a commercial outfit in the spring, that queen gets popped and the colony raises an emergency queen to take them through the winter. The benefits are two fold: 1st I end up with a good quality queen and it also diversifies the genetics in my yard. If I buy 10 nucs from the same guy it is pretty likely that all those queens are sisters, the emergency queen daughters on the other hand, will be locally mated and all cousins.

The bees will always supersede a poor queen. let them make the decision.

 

[Mike101]

I have had great looking queens that were were at best average and some smaller ones that have been fantastic. So size is not everything.

 

[Jeff Buzz]

So size is not everything.

Thats what I keep telling my wife ;-)

 

[peteinwilts]

Last year I had a hive that was on rape. I lost the queen through a swarm (the weather was very cold in May preventing inspections)

The QC that remained failed.

two more QCs were produced by workers, both of which hatched, one of which swarmed taking even more bees. I has down to a few hundred bees towards the end of June, and pretty much thinking whether to combine the few that was left with a colony.... but I did not and gave her a chance.

By the end of the year and going through autumn there were physically too many bees to physically fit in a 14x12 hive and had to give her a pair of supers on top just to give them enough room.... they came out of winter with a huge amount of bees completely filling the 14x12.

I took 60lbs of honey in autumn (even though there were just a few hundred bees 3 months before), and had 60lbs honey in spring albeit how poor\dry the weather was.

I thought she may burn out, but she is still going like the clappers and has a constant very full brood box and has not produced a single QC all year.

Since she was born, they have not had a varroa issue (apiguard drop count of 2 and 0!)

I have other good examples, but she is my best. I certainly have no problem with scrub queens

 

[Chris Luck]

I have had and have colonies with scrub queens and they can turn out to be excellent, strong and prolific, and of course I agree that size isn't everything.

Later, Chris

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Here's a small one for you. She's marked - white dot on thorax - in case you miss her! In the photo she doesn't look much like a queen but she definitely is!

She came in a decent sized cast I collected. She's laid up the 4 small frames in the mini nuc quite well. I put a queencell in the hive. That virgin is now in there too. I suspect she will supercede the small one at sometime.
I certainly wouldn't want her to go in a big hive as she would almost certainly slip through a queen excluder.

Big queens have more egg laying capacity.

If the result of a walk-away split is better than those obtained commercially, there is something wrong with the commercial yards in my view!

 

[bobandbec]

As long as they are big enough not to be able to get into my supers they are OK with me.

Peter

 

[keith pierce]

i have a few scrub queens heading up colonies, that emerged from small hidden emergency cell that i did not see.They are better than nothing , but as soon as i have spare queens left in apideas then i will requeen them.

 

[peteinwilts]

As long as they are big enough not to be able to get into my supers they are OK with me.

Peter

And if she could, she could be used in a TBH

 

[Chris Luck]

Or even a Warré.

Chris

 

[newportbuzz]

or heading up nucs.

 

[keith pierce]

or heading up nucs.

.

Agree.Dont throw her out as you may need her, but certinally not heading a full cololy that you want to put into honey production next year. good chance she will turn into a drone layer over the winter

 

[Chris Luck]

Do you have any scientific evidence for that statement Keith?

As I said I have colonies that are excellent with scrub queens and as has been posted, walk away splits are quite common in some places.

Chris

 

[sugarbush]

i have a few scrub queens heading up colonies, that emerged from small hidden emergency cell that i did not see.They are better than nothing , but as soon as i have spare queens left in apideas then i will requeen them.

How do you get the queens in apideas? If you graft or use a Jenter type system you are making a mock emergency queen. If you open mate the end result is exactly the same. Open mated emergency queen. The only upside to the apideas queen is that you select the parent colony, but with the diploid nature of the honey bee, selecting stock from your best hives without AI is a crap shoot at best. I think you gain nothing by raising a queen vs using one they created them selves.

 

[drstitson]

"If you graft or use a Jenter type system you are making a mock emergency queen"

not if you raise in a Queenright colony.

all queen cells are produced as a result of pheromone reduction (amongst other things). it is the starting material and how the youngsters are raised prior to sealing that matters as to the outcome/type of queen.

i accept that from then on the mating is just pot luck without AI or closed mating BUT like any animal husbandry you choose your breeding stock. in this case you want the best queen possible even if you can't control who she mates with.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Scrub queens are far superior....THE BEST.