Amms more swarmy than other types?

[Curly green finger's]

Morning, what are your opinions on Amms having more tendencys to swarm compared to other type of bee's.
Cheers

 

[gp125john]

Most of the books say the opposite about AMMs. Is it a good AMM though or just a dark mongrel?

 

[SDM]

The question sounds almost like deliberate trolling, but ....
I highly doubt Amm have seen anything like the level of selection against swarming tendency that others have and were never considered to have a particularly low swarming intent. So as of today , yes they probably are more likely to swarm.
A few decades of selection could correct at least some of it though surely.

 

[SDM]

Most of the books say the opposite about AMMs. Is it a good AMM though or just a dark mongrel?

Which books are these ?
Cooper , Ruttner and Bro Adam all found a high swarming intent in Amm

 

[Ian123]

Sweeping statements on any race or strain can be misleading although some obviously have a grain of truth. Carniolans are said to be prone to swarming as a race yet those from the good breeders/programs are picked for the reluctance to do so. I had a site this year with a number of local mongrel colonies and some Buckfast, all but 1 of the mongrels tried to swarm yet only 1 of the bucks. There is a great deal of difference between well bred bees and run of the mill examples that many just don’t realise, and certainly old styles of beekeeping encouraged swarming tendencies.

 

[Stiffy]

Morning, what are your opinions on Amms having more tendencys to swarm compared to other type of bee's.
Cheers

I find the chart used here closely follows the traits of each strain.
https://www.iwantbees.co.uk/queens/
S

 

[SDM]

I find the chart used here closely follows the traits of each strain.
https://www.iwantbees.co.uk/queens/
S

Some of it holds up though it rather flatters Amm, certainly in regard to honey production
The COLOSS genotype environment interactions experiment found Amm to be amongst the lowest honey producers, most defensive, highest swarming intent and least hygenic.
I've never understood why those who favour our native bee were so keen to cite this study as a reason to keep them.
It does however mention that a lack of development of the species is likely to be at least in part responsible, but thst over all the 16 phenotypes they tested confirmed Ruttner' S classifications

 

[Stiffy]

I agree, but I would have thought most strains should be able to produce honey when conditions allow.
S

 

[SDM]

I agree, but I would have thought most strains should be able to produce honey when conditions allow.
S

The strains were tested side by side at different locations, 621 colonies of 16 genotypes, whilst obviously location and conditions affected yields, they affected all phenotypes equally at each location. The 3 strains of Amm tested produced roughly half the yield of the best subspecies.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Morning, what are your opinions on Amms having more tendencys to swarm compared to other type of bee's.
Cheers

I found carnies and Buckfast much swarmier.

 

[SDM]

I found carnies and Buckfast much swarmier.

Anecdote and prejudice meets peer reviewed science and data analysis.

 

[B+.]

I agree, but I would have thought most strains should be able to produce honey when conditions allow.
S

That chart looks remarkably similar, if not exactly the same, as Brother Adams - which is about 100 years out of date. I would suggest it is a bit like an MOT on your car: reliable at the time of issue.
To be completely clear, the selective breeding work done is usually on carnica (see Coloss/JAR52.1.07). IMHO, this is because it has the best overall profile as a starting point. It may be that mellifera can be improved in the same way but this will take considerable effort. Buckfasts, by definition, are continuously engineered to be among the best performers but they are not a homogeneous population. They are a synthetic hybrid and each breeders Buckfasts may be considerably different. The Buckfast bee is more of an approach, or an idea, than a race of bee. Nevertheless, many beekeepers swear by it because it performs so well.
The OPs question focused on swarming in particular so discussion about other aspects of a colonies performance are off topic.
Carnica are generally held to be a swarmy race. I suspect that is because most people only ever encounter lower quality carnica from mass production multipliers. The carnica I work with are healthy, productive and reluctant to swarm (I have only ever had 1 of these swarm in all the years I have worked with them). So, the point should be that the carnica most people see is not a good representation of what a selected carnica can be. Of course, the same is true of mellifera and all the other races. They can be improved, but it takes work.
The real question is: are the people/groups we have in this country fit for purpose? Do they have the will/means to do the work necessary to improve mellifera in the same way carnica has been? Personally, I doubt it. All I see is a disorganised rabble more concerned with arguing than focusing on improvement. This is not the case in other countries though. There are mellifera groups all across Europe doing precisely the sort of selection work that I do with carnica. I am left with the conclusion that it is not so much the bee that needs improving, it's our attitude.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Anecdote and prejudice meets peer reviewed science and data analysis.

You'd know all about prejudice. No menion was made of fecundity, honey yield or anything else until you decided to make an issue of it.
We all guessed the usual culprits would pounce on this post as it suits their agenda.
I simply stated my personal observations. Probably more valid than the OP's

 

[SDM]

A+ for B+

 

[For want of a better word]

Which books are these ?
Cooper , Ruttner and Bro Adam all found a high swarming intent in Amm

Probably ( with the possible exception of B.C) because they had limited experience of pure native bees and or had only experienced the French Amm and or the same possibly French derivatives now being sold as Irish Amm....
If they were depending on wing morphometry to distinguish the race possibly made a lot of incorrect decisions... now we have high powered DNA analyses things are very different!

All bees swarm.
Adaptation and selection for local environmental condition play a large part in honey production and fucundency shirley??

Chons da

 

[Stiffy]

You'd know all about prejudice. No menion was made of fecundity, honey yield or anything else until you decided to make an issue of it.
We all guessed the usual culprits would pounce on this post as it suits their agenda.
I simply stated my personal observations. Probably more valid than the OP's

As I read the OP question , he was looking for 'general' advice not personal experiences or exceptions. The chart does in my opinion still provide this.
S

 

[SDM]

You'd know all about prejudice. No menion was made of fecundity, honey yield or anything else until you decided to make an issue of it.
We all guessed the usual culprits would pounce on this post as it suits their agenda.
I simply stated my personal observations. Probably more valid than the OP's

I have no prejudice outside of performance ( and a slight aesthetic preference for yellow queens). We were referred by Stiffy to a chart that covers a host of traits, I simply stated where the chart and science differ.
I've made no mention of my personal preference because as a hybrid they were not included in the 2010/11 study and so Data does not exist to support it.
I'm afraid I can't help it if you find the best available science to be an assault on your personal agenda , but console yourself with the knowledge that the study did nothing to promote my preferred bee as it was never mentioned til you bastardized it's name
Now can we get back on topic .

 

[Erichalfbee]

As I read the OP question , he was looking for 'general' advice not personal experiences or exceptions. The chart does in my opinion still provide this.
S

Actually he was looking for opinions which would include personal observations?

 

[SDM]

.
Adaptation and selection for local environmental condition play a large part in honey production and fucundency shirley??

Chons da

Most certainly, it seems( according to the afore mentioned study) that our native bee was selected for higher swarming and lower honey production .. traits that were no doubt advantageous at some point in its evolution, but are unlikely to commend it as a beekeepers bee.

 

[SDM]

That chart looks remarkably similar, if not exactly the same, as Brother Adams - which is about 100 years out of date..

Just a thought but I wonder if it was ever in date with regards to Amc swarming tendency.
If they tried to manage them in the same way and in the same hives they did their native bees, then swarming intent would have been unfairly judged.