Aficionados of oxalic sublimation

[JamezF]

They can also pick them up from flowers when foraging.

Oh yes, that hadn't occurred to me.

James

 

[Gilberdyke John]

One of the things that's really interesting to me about the Bob Binnie videos is the discussion of how they actually do the science in terms of trying to remove all possible sources of bias from the results (mostly discussed in the latter half of the second video, from memory). I'm slightly surprised that they appear to do both the treatment and the mite counts, but perhaps that's just because there aren't enough people available to separate those processes. And in fact I guess if they know the colony number for the purposes of assessment but don't know which colony that actually applies to when they visit the apiary, that may be good enough. It's encouraging to see that despite the funding issues they allude to in one of the videos that they're still trying to do the best quality science that they can.

Also interesting because I wasn't aware of it, was that mites turn up in colonies believed to be mite-free even when there are no other colonies nearby. I assume that must mean that pretty much all colonies have some level of infestation even if it's below detectable levels. Either that or "foreign" bees are bringing them in from some distance away, which I didn't realise was a possibility.

James

Drones?

 

[JamezF]

Drones?

Drones leaving a colony in one area and returning to another some distance away, you mean?

James

 

[mbc]

So it slows the increase of mites but can’t be used successfully as a late summer treatment?
They talk about a maintenance treatment? Do we really want that ?

My take home from the graphs was different, statistically there was very little difference between the oae and apivar- pretty much our most effective weapon in the armoury against varroa.
Irritatingly they stopped the trial at 42 days, I've a feeling oae has more of an effect on fecundity than morbidity so I would've been very interested in seeing results for mite washes at about 60 days (my money would be on the varroa levels remaining very low).
If we did mite washes across the UK at any point in the season my guess is most colonies would have > 5/100 mites per bee.
Interesting video, thanks for posting @Anduril, Bob is a lovely character.

 

[victor meldrew]

Apivar is subject to having mites becoming immune to it so I’m told ?
whereas OE isn’t .

 

[JamezF]

Apivar is subject to having mites becoming immune to it so I’m told ?
whereas OE isn’t .

If I've understood the videos correctly, the active agent in Apivar is Amitraz and there is evidence of immunity to Amitraz.

James

 

[North End Bees]

If I've understood the videos correctly, the active agent in Apivar is Amitraz and there is evidence of immunity to Amitraz.

Yes, there is increasing resistance. I've stopped using it.
Apistan has even more widespread resistance.

Apiguard, luckily, is thymol based and not a'hard' chemical so doesn't look like there will be the same problems with effectiveness.

All these api products must be a nightmare for new beekeepers to know what to use!

 

[user 20297]

Yes, there is increasing resistance. I've stopped using it.
Apistan has even more widespread resistance.

Apiguard, luckily, is thymol based and not a'hard' chemical so doesn't look like there will be the same problems with effectiveness.

All these api products must be a nightmare for new beekeepers to know what to use!

Yes, I've devised a system for marking my frames where they have been subject to Apivar I may as well just use the abbreviation, "VAR".
If I used the other chemicals and if contamination worried me as much I could obviously use, "STAN" and "GUARD".

 

[Boston Bees]

Apiguard, luckily, is thymol based and not a'hard' chemical so doesn't look like there will be the same problems with effectiveness.

Apiguard, sadly, has its own problems with effectiveness, not related to resistance.

 

[North End Bees]

Apiguard, sadly, has its own problems with effectiveness, not related to resistance.

Temperature can be a problem, both too hot and too cool. I've used apiguard often in August with no problems.

Well, no problems for the bees at least. One year it was a warm day and, unthinking, I peeled back the foil and was spattered in the face with melted apiguard. The packets had been sitting in the hot car which was obviously hotter than I realised.

The splash burns on my face took over a week to heal. Needless to say that was a learning experience!

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Drones leaving a colony in one area and returning to another some distance away, you mean?

James

Yes although to be pedantic I was only thinking of the trip from a remote infested hive to the next port of call.

 

[JamezF]

Returning to this thanks to postings in the "Snake Oil" thread because here seems a more logical place...

I'm a bit lost as to why the temperature and humidity of different locations seems to be of such concern when the books I've read appear to claim that the bees attempt to maintain the brood area within a relatively narrow range of temperature and humidity (whilst it's possible to do so). For example, as I happen to have one of Celia Davis's books here on my desk, she claims that brood needs to be kept at 34.5°C. Is that information incorrect, or could there be something else going on that might relate to temperature and the efficacy of the treatment?

James

 

[Anduril]

Returning to this thanks to postings in the "Snake Oil" thread because here seems a more logical place...

I'm a bit lost as to why the temperature and humidity of different locations seems to be of such concern when the books I've read appear to claim that the bees attempt to maintain the brood area within a relatively narrow range of temperature and humidity (whilst it's possible to do so). For example, as I happen to have one of Celia Davis's books here on my desk, she claims that brood needs to be kept at 34.5°C. Is that information incorrect, or could there be something else going on that might relate to temperature and the efficacy of the treatment?

James

My take on the temperature and humidity of different locations are to do with the brood breaks or lack thereof in each individual area, as well as the speed of growth of the hive. Although they tried to treat each area at the same time, it wasn't possible due to there still being forage available in some areas.

 

[Boston Bees]

Returning to this thanks to postings in the "Snake Oil" thread because here seems a more logical place...

I'm a bit lost as to why the temperature and humidity of different locations seems to be of such concern when the books I've read appear to claim that the bees attempt to maintain the brood area within a relatively narrow range of temperature and humidity (whilst it's possible to do so). For example, as I happen to have one of Celia Davis's books here on my desk, she claims that brood needs to be kept at 34.5°C. Is that information incorrect, or could there be something else going on that might relate to temperature and the efficacy of the treatment?

James

The discussion about temperature is relating to Apiguard. Apiguard requires a certain temperature to work. Bees do indeed maintain the temperature in the core of the brood nest at the appropriate level, but Apiguard isn't placed in the core of the brood nest, it's placed on top of the frames. In cold weather the temperature there is too cold for it to work.

 

[mbc]

Returning to this thanks to postings in the "Snake Oil" thread because here seems a more logical place...

I'm a bit lost as to why the temperature and humidity of different locations seems to be of such concern when the books I've read appear to claim that the bees attempt to maintain the brood area within a relatively narrow range of temperature and humidity (whilst it's possible to do so). For example, as I happen to have one of Celia Davis's books here on my desk, she claims that brood needs to be kept at 34.5°C. Is that information incorrect, or could there be something else going on that might relate to temperature and the efficacy of the treatment?

James

Ambient conditions will still have an effect even when the internal nest conditions are kept within the same limits wherever.
Imagine a cloud of gaseous oxalic acid condensing on every surface within a hive, in a high humidity environment those crystals are going to soften and lose their "edge"(either in terms of low pH or abrasive quality) far quicker than crystals in a dry environment.
The homeostasis kept by bees is very specifically just around the brood.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'm a bit lost as to why the temperature and humidity of different locations seems to be of such concern when the books I've read appear to claim that the bees attempt to maintain the brood area within a relatively narrow range of temperature and humidity (whilst it's possible to do so). For example, as I happen to have one of Celia Davis's books here on my desk, she claims that brood needs to be kept at 34.5°C. Is that information incorrect, or could there be something else going on that might relate to temperature and the efficacy of the treatment

It's not about temperature within the hive - or anywhere else for that matter, it's about how active the bees are, treatments like Apiguard need the hive to be working normally, with bees going out to forage and trying to shift the offensive substance out of the hive by passing it from bee to bee and there being plenty of room within the hive for the stuff to get everywhere. At lower outside temperatures, the bees will be (albeit loosely) clustered the stuff doesn't get shifted around as much

 

[Boston Bees]

It's not about temperature within the hive - or anywhere else for that matter, it's about how active the bees are, treatments like Apiguard need the hive to be working normally, with bees going out to forage and trying to shift the offensive substance out of the hive by passing it from bee to bee and there being plenty of room within the hive for the stuff to get everywhere. At lower outside temperatures, the bees will be (albeit loosely) clustered the stuff doesn't get shifted around as much

This is mostly true, although at lower temperatures the Apiguard won't give out as much vapour, and it's the vapour which triggers the bee to remove the Apiguard (according to the manufacturers anyway). So temperature plays a role, and not just in making the bees more likely to be climbing around the hive.

 

[JamezF]

The discussion about temperature is relating to Apiguard.

They also mention temperature and humidity when discussing the testing of Alouen CAP as far as I recall.

I can understand the possibility of a beekeeper conflating the temperature/humidity with the proportion of bees in the hive, but for a scientist to do so seems less likely as there's no necessary direct correlation between the two and I'd expect them to make a distinction in that case. Low temperatures may well mean fewer bees go out foraging for example, but more bees in the hive doesn't mean the outside temperature is lower. It could just be that the weather is unsuitable for flying in some other way. Or that it's dark Perhaps their climate is just more stable than here in the UK and the two genuinely can be considered to correlate.

Equally, they clearly recorded a great deal of data for the tests, so if temperature and humidity might be considered a factor, why not record those as well? They're a lot easier to obtain than some of the other information they were using.

It makes me wonder if tests conducted in parts of the world with dissimilar climates to the UK can be considered to provide any useful information regarding efficacy when used here and whether full tests on any mite treatment have actually been conducted here (other than for health and safety etc.). Could we even perhaps expect different performance for some treatments between where I am in the south west of the UK and someone in Scotland, say?

James

 

[Anduril]

They also mention temperature and humidity when discussing the testing of Alouen CAP as far as I recall.
James

That was the context I answered your question and as Bob said, it would be interesting to see the results if the tests were done in the spring.

 

[joebeewhisperer]

Bob binnie
What a pleasure to listen too
A great guy

We are fortunate enough to live ~3hrs from his shop. My first visit was on a Saturday 2 years ago, and they were not particularly busy. Mr. Binnie came out of the office and engaged a conversation. After stating my name I said, "First of all I totally don't know what I am doing." to which he replied, "None of us do really." with his typical humble demeanor. I limited the conversation to about 10 minutes out of respect for his time. If not, I would likely still be there.