Advice on making splits later this year

[B+.]

Very impressive and interesting to a relative beginner.

Beginners are often impressed by the number of colonies a beekeeper has and often seeks to emulate it, usually before he is ready. My advice would be learn to manage what you have first. If you do it properly, growth will come naturally

 

[olriley]

Sound advice indeed, and I realise this was probably quickly fired off with a cursory read of my post and glance at my avatar.

The nature of an internet forum begets misinterpretation and hence I opened with 'relative beginner' so the poster could be assured that my intent was to learn, rather than try to rubbish him or catch him out.

As I detailed on my welcome post, I am entering my fifth year of beekeeping, with five colonies (originating from two) and only one winter loss to date (touch wood). So I do consider myself a beginner, but one is reasonably well versed in general hive management including swarm control and splitting colonies.

The above probably comes across as defensive! Not intended, just clarifying my situation, for anyone who is interested

 

[Poly Hive]

I just checked the OP's location which is Wiltshire. Now my geography of the south ain't great but that's way south yes?

Hivemaker is also way south in Devon so what works down there will frankly not work up here.

I am operating some hundreds of miles north and that makes a difference to what I suggest.

PH

 

[B+.]

Sound advice indeed, and I realise this was probably quickly fired off with a cursory read of my post and glance at my avatar.

Not at all: I meant that there are problems that you have to solve at each level of production.
When I started beekeeping (~30 years ago), I got up to 6 and couldn't seem to get any higher. Each year, I would make a few extra to take into winter and a few would die due to one thing, or another. I realised that the age/quality of the queens was my problem and I increased to 30. Then, I hit a problem and lost quite a few to wasp predation (simply solved by making sure the colonies were strong and the entrance was reduced in July when wasps became a problem around here - some years they are a bigger problem than others though). Then, I increased to 70 and so-forth...My point being that you will encounter difficulties that you have to overcome that are specific to your way of managing your bees and specific to your area. Advice from the forum may help, but, it may not. Ultimately, you have to take ownership of each problem yourself.
I am definitely in favour of growing organically. That doesn't mean that I won't spend money on good stock though. Learning what to do is, first and foremost the way the becoming a good beekeeper, but, even the best beekeeper will have problems if his/her stock isn't good enough.

 

[Beefriendly]

I think B+ and PH have touched on the real issues. Advice needs to be tailored to the region and strain of bees you use.
HM's Buckfast are unlikely to swarm during a flow so splitting afterwards is sensible. If I tried that with the local mongrels in my area it wouldn't work. They would attempt to swarm as soon as the flow started....whereas my Buckfast rarely do.

 

[olriley]

Good points, thanks, particularly the one about stock. I have acknowledged this may be a limitation with my bees and am planning to buy in some queens (Buckfast as it happens) for the first time this season as mine are of unknown origin, well genetically speaking anyway (I found them in a tree near Grantham ), and hence the question of splitting is of particular interest and I'm trying to absorb info to decide - and will obviously take cues from the bees and conditions. For a given hive, I could:
1. Re-queen in spring (as soon as commercial queens become available)
2. Split it in spring before it makes swarm prep (with new queen for split)
3. Await swarm prep, make a 'walk-away' split with a QC, and requeen the original colony

Or some other permutation. Interested in what others do.
Edit: just seen Beefriendly's post, useful too.

 

[DanBee]

150 acres of OSR on the doorstep

There's the ticket. Aim to get fresh drawn brood comb and strong populations on the OSR, then split when flowering finishes. If it's winter-sown OSR, the new queen will be mated comfortably before main flow.

 

[DanBee]

I think B+ and PH have touched on the real issues. Advice needs to be tailored to the region and strain of bees you use.
HM's Buckfast are unlikely to swarm during a flow so splitting afterwards is sensible. If I tried that with the local mongrels in my area it wouldn't work. They would attempt to swarm as soon as the flow started....whereas my Buckfast rarely do.

Is it all genetic swarminess or is there an aspect of congestion? The National hive is small, yet it is assumed that one brood box is sufficient, and this is the pattern of hive used across most of the UK because... well that's what people are familiar with. Indeed there is a perverse logic in some areas that bees that need more than a single National brood box are somehow wrong.

Spring OSR, when conditions are favourable, has the potential for a major flow just when the colony is at the peak of its population expansion. Huge space contention? Swarming is a response to congestion, amongst a number of factors. Telltales of problems coming are wall-to-wall brood on brood frames, and pollen stored above the QX. Both are telling you that the colony could grow bigger but the box is restricting them. Where a Demaree works as a preventative it is because it provides an effective but short-term doubling of the brood nest area, yet giving additional brood space seems to be treated as an exceptional approach rather than the norm.

So before you consider requeening, why not consider adding more brood space?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Indeed there is a perverse logic in some areas that bees that need more than a single National brood box are somehow wrong.

Roger that.

 

[Beefriendly]

Is it all genetic swarminess or is there an aspect of congestion?

There is always beekeeper error in allowing congestion.
In some cases it's not the error it's the bees. My old local bees were inveterate annual swarmers regardless of room.

 

[masterBK]

" Roger that."Was Hivemaker merely agreeing or alluding to a specific beekeeper called Roger who seems to be an advocate of unprolific bees that can fit into a single national BC.

 

[Poly Hive]

Moving off topic a tad... What a load of the proverbial codswallop that one Nat brood box is enough or worse "should be"

So in deepest darkest Aberdeenshire the Glen was developed as the Nat and the WBC were.... one guess. Too bloody small.

Not positive on dates but the Glen plan was certainly around in the late 1930's as I had one made by the owner I bought it from and he built it on leave in 1941. It was dated inside the roof.


PH

 

[Eyeman]

Very impressive and interesting to a relative beginner.

So your new colonies were typically made by splitting from a hive with no swarm cells, and introducing a new mated queen to the new split? What time of year did you do this?

Did you split all your initial colonies, or reserve some for production?

Also would you mind explaining your nuc terminology e.g. '5x5' and 'double'

Thanks!

Just trying to offer some 'real live' data of what happened last season. I'm lucky in that I can afford to just 'go-with-the-bees' so I don't split hives that aren't making swarm preps. I put a lot of effort into making sure the colony has enough room which is the best way to delay their swarm preps. Last season 7 out of my 18 production colonies made swarm preps.
5x5 = two 5 frame nucs one on top of the other- 2 of these fit the standard national hive footprint.
3x3 = two 3 frame nucs one on top of the other- 3 of these fit the standard national hive footprint
This allows me to use the same varroa monitoring floors and roofs.

 

[olriley]

Just trying to offer some 'real live' data of what happened last season. I'm lucky in that I can afford to just 'go-with-the-bees' so I don't split hives that aren't making swarm preps. I put a lot of effort into making sure the colony has enough room which is the best way to delay their swarm preps. Last season 7 out of my 18 production colonies made swarm preps.
5x5 = two 5 frame nucs one on top of the other- 2 of these fit the standard national hive footprint.
3x3 = two 3 frame nucs one on top of the other- 3 of these fit the standard national hive footprint
This allows me to use the same varroa monitoring floors and roofs.

So when they make swarm preps, you make a split with a QC in it?

 

[Poly Hive]

And so by doing that the end result is to intensify the strain that swarms.

Far far better to either buy in a queen from a non swarmy strain or to breed your own from the non swarmy colonies.

KISS

PH

 

[Eyeman]

So when they make swarm preps, you make a split with a QC in it?

Swarm control involves taking the Q out and putting her into one of my 3 frame nucs with a frame of her brood & bees. I then requeen that production colony with a queen from one of my over-wintered 5x5 nucs. I use some of these over-wintered nucs to requeen my production colonies either for swarm control or to improve their characteristics. These nucs are then later requeened with my own reared queens or a queen cell depending how early in the season it is. There is no great rush in re-queening a nuc.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Hivemaker is also way south in Devon

West Somerset, have never lived in Devon.

 

[enrico]

Moving off topic a tad... What a load of the proverbial codswallop that one Nat brood box is enough or worse "should be"

So in deepest darkest Aberdeenshire the Glen was developed as the Nat and the WBC were.... one guess. Too bloody small.

Not positive on dates but the Glen plan was certainly around in the late 1930's as I had one made by the owner I bought it from and he built it on leave in 1941. It was dated inside the roof.


PH

But in fairness, before the days of internet and mobile phones, many of us believed and trusted that one national brood box WAS big enough and WAS all we needed. Unkept bees for many years in one box, and then the internet was born and unrealised other people kept bees too!!!!!!!
E

 

[Uncle Betty]

He's right about the timing but for minimum impact on honey crop and ease of management for the rest of the season I much prefer requeening the parent hive and taking a small nuc with the old queen. The parent hive will have minimal risk of swarming with a new queen and can safely be left to pack out many supers without congestion being an issue while the old queen can be utilised to build up a new nest and if desired requeened later to make a colony as good as any other for overwintering.
With Wally's scheme the part of the split with the old queen will likely try to swarm if the flow gets going and neither part is likely to produce a decent crop in most seasons.

OK, thanks for that.

 

[Poly Hive]

Not at all Enrico. Pre web I was well aware that a single Nat was not big enough for most bees unless they were Amm which at the time I had a good few of.

There was plenty of info flowing via lectures, books and meetings.

PH