a seam of natural comb between super frames

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idg

House Bee
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
307
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1
Location
Midlands
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
7
I have under supered my hive with a frame of foundation. The first super was filling up nicely although there was still a small amount of capacity in it.
After about a week, the bees haven't touched the foundation in the new super. Instead they have built a seam of natural comb about as big as a saucer in between the frames of foundation. They are filling this with stores.
Is there a problem with my spacings, although I have castellations controlling the gaps (10 frames across)? Should I remove it?
 
Under-spacing foundation is a bad idea, for precisely the reason you've just discovered - given the choice, bees prefer to build their own comb rather than use foundation. It's better to set frames of foundation closer together until they're mostly drawn, then increase the spacing.
 
There have been two or three recent threads where I initial frame spacing has been discussed. The National box was designed around eleven frames. This is the outcome of ignoring that.
 
There have been two or three recent threads where I initial frame spacing has been discussed. The National box was designed around eleven frames. This is the outcome of ignoring that.

So why are 10 frame castellations even available? I bought them thinking they were the norm, not some "special". Do 10 frame spacings give you any benefits apart from having to extract 1 less frame per super.
 
For use with already drawn comb, theory that deeper cells, more honey, less wax, etc. You could then use 9 slot, some do. I use normal spacing with fresh foundation and move on to 10 later.
 
Put that super on top or else they won't draw it until every the brood box is blocked up

Just reread post is it under the brood box?
 
Been there ...

I had a similar problem a week or so ago - see http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28801&page=2

The essence of the problem is too much space between the frames. I took off the 10 frame castellation and turned it upside down and used the natural spacing of my Hoffman frames - I ended up with 12 frames in the super. When the frames are drawn, I will put 10 frames into another Super with 10 castellations by which time, there should not be such large spaces between to combs, compared to spaces between the equivalent sheets of foundation.

All the best

CVB
 
Put that super on top or else they won't draw it until every the brood box is blocked up

Just reread post is it under the brood box?

Sorry no. the super of foundation is under the super that is mostly filled. Both are above the brood. I appreciate my name is beenovice, but even I know supers go above the brood.

Thanks for advice
 
So why are 10 frame castellations even available? I bought them thinking they were the norm, not some "special". Do 10 frame spacings give you any benefits apart from having to extract 1 less frame per super.

normal practice is to place undrawn at 11 to a box, then when drawn, move into castellations - 10 or 9, so you get more honey, less wax. And less supers to extract for the same honey or more
 
So why are 10 frame castellations even available? I bought them thinking they were the norm, not some "special". Do 10 frame spacings give you any benefits apart from having to extract 1 less frame per super.
There are 11, 10 and 9 frame castellation strips for national supers. The idea would be to get your foundation started on 11, move it to 10, then perhaps 9 if cut comb is what you're after and want deep cells. The full price super from Th0rnes even has a simple slot for the castellation strip that allows a quick change.

In practice, many get away with using 10 all the time. Largely a matter of getting the frames where and when the bees are most keen to draw out anything you give them. Mostly over the brood although it can be luck or knowledge of your local forage. Sometimes alternating new foundation with extracted or partially drawn frames from the previous year can give them the idea, or moving the untouched frames at the edge to the centre where it's warmer and the wax production easier.
 
There are 11, 10 and 9 frame castellation strips for national supers. The idea would be to get your foundation started on 11, move it to 10, then perhaps 9 if cut comb is what you're after and want deep cells. The full price super from Th0rnes even has a simple slot for the castellation strip that allows a quick change.

In practice, many get away with using 10 all the time. Largely a matter of getting the frames where and when the bees are most keen to draw out anything you give them. Mostly over the brood although it can be luck or knowledge of your local forage. Sometimes alternating new foundation with extracted or partially drawn frames from the previous year can give them the idea, or moving the untouched frames at the edge to the centre where it's warmer and the wax production easier.

Imho there are 2 distinct cases:-

1. Full super of ONLY foundation. In this case the frames need to be really close together. Some advice says that even getting 12 into the box helps until they are partly drawn out.

2. Getting some frames of foundation drawn when you have some other frames of drawn comb. I find that you can 'checkerboard' the frames. ie place a drawn comb frame and then a frame of foundation next to it and repeat until the box is full. In a 10 frame spaced super this seems to work ok even though sometimes the foundation gets drawn out shallow and the already drawn comb gets a bit overdrawn!

Again in my opinion once you have some drawn super frames it's far easier to encourage the bees to draw foundation and as your stock of drawn or part drawn frames increases you can redistribute them across supers to fit.
I have some 9 space supers that have the fattest drawn comb frames in and basically, based on last year, yes you get as much honey from 9 frames as from 10! The only drawback can be that the bees will not cap it until the cells are full so there has to be a good flow on.
 
I have gone to all 10-slot castellations as I was advised that this was the maximum spacing that you could place foundation at, and it works fine for me. However I always alternate the direction of my supers. If the frames are in line above each other they can regard them as one sheet of comb and join them together. If however they are in the same alignment but not directly above each they will continue building down from the top frames, which is what I suspect has happened here. Putting each super at 90 degrees to the next gets over both of these problems.

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