A question of temp & humidity

[pargyle]

Hi All, I'm in the latter stages of finalising yet another hive - this one will hopefully have some bees in it shortly. It's a super-insulated (polystyrene sandwich) and thick timbered hive that will live in my garden and give me the opportunity to observe the bees on a very regular basis.

The question of colony/hive temperature and humidity is something that interests me from a point of view of colony health and over winter survival.

I've found this cheap little device on fleabay which has two remote temperature senders and a humidity sender as well - plus a whole host of recording features.

If I install the senders on the new hive I wondered if this would provide me with an opportunity to record the internal temperature of the hive and its humidity and using the other sender the external hive temperature.

What do you think ? And .. if it's a yes then any ideas on where inside the hive the temp and humidity sensors are best located. The new hive is a long hive with 14 x 12 wired but foundationless frames with top bee space.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LCD-Digit...rs_Insects&hash=item5d2ee678ea#ht_2740wt_1340

The flex between the sensors and the control unit has enough length to allow me to contain it in a weatherproof box well away from the hive inside my greenhouse.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi All, I'm in the latter stages of finalising yet another hive - this one will hopefully have some bees in it shortly. It's a super-insulated (polystyrene sandwich) and thick timbered hive that will live in my garden and give me the opportunity to observe the bees on a very regular basis.

The question of colony/hive temperature and humidity is something that interests me from a point of view of colony health and over winter survival.

I've found this cheap little device on fleabay which has two remote temperature senders and a humidity sender as well - plus a whole host of recording features.

If I install the senders on the new hive I wondered if this would provide me with an opportunity to record the internal temperature of the hive and its humidity and using the other sender the external hive temperature.

What do you think ? And .. if it's a yes then any ideas on where inside the hive the temp and humidity sensors are best located. The new hive is a long hive with 14 x 12 wired but foundationless frames with top bee space.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LCD-Digit...rs_Insects&hash=item5d2ee678ea#ht_2740wt_1340

The flex between the sensors and the control unit has enough length to allow me to contain it in a weatherproof box well away from the hive inside my greenhouse.

I'm sure DerekM will be along in a minute and give you all the info you need

 

[madasafish]

I had one like that when incubating quails and turkeys.

Be aware that damp tends to get inside the LCD after a few weeks and screws it up so it becomes partially/totally unreadable...

 

[user 6228]

here I am!
it all depends what you want to measure.
This is a wooden hive? then anything near the walls is going to be biased by the heat loss/condensation
For a single sensor the best location is as high up as possible in the occupied space, but not actually in contact with the crown board or roof, in the centre. Then at least you know the highest temperature and humidity in the hive, rather than a temp or humidity thats reflecting the influence of the walls.
That temperature and humidity will indicate the intensity of the work going on in the hive. Later place them on the bottom of a frame again in the centre and look at the difference.


Have Fun

Derek

 

[Anduril]

This is a wooden hive?

Pargyle said it was a sandwich.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Pargyle said it was a sandwich.

Wholemeal or white? - these things can make a difference you know

 

[user 6228]

didnt spot the sandwich...

then it opens the options...

basic question : are you measuring the thermal performance of the hive or the bees?

 

[Anduril]

Wholemeal or white? - these things can make a difference you know

Which one rises faster, being super insulated? What filling would you like?

 

[Luminos]

Which one rises faster, being super insulated? What filling would you like?

...honey??

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

...honey??

Yes, Luminos?

(And haven't I asked you not to call me that in public?)

Dusty

 

[pargyle]

didnt spot the sandwich...

then it opens the options...

basic question : are you measuring the thermal performance of the hive or the bees?

Thanks for your help ... yes the hive walls are a sandwich of 20mm timber on inside (T&G close boarded) then 30mm HD Polystyrene and outer skin is 12mm timber planks. All joints are glued and any gaps filled. (Downside is that it weighs a ton ! It will take 25 14x12 frames - Full OMF but there's a tray underneath and ventilation is controlled with a series of holes at the base of the hive walls above the OMF - but the vent holes have corks to vary the ventilation as necessary. The colony space can be reduced with insulated follower boards.

What I'm interested in, particularly, is whether, with a hive of this nature, the bees are able to control the temperature and humidity at a constant level and compare this with the external air temperature and weather conditions. Clearly, it's going to be a bit rough and ready with the limited number of sensors but it should provide me with some data. From what you are saying the ideal place for the internal sensors is high in the hive in the brood area so it sounds like the best place for both temp and humidity sensors is on top of the frames immediately under the crown board and ideally above the cluster ? This will be quite possible - the alternative is with the sensors located sticking out from the side wall into the brood area - the actual probes are only about 10mm long so this won't interfere unduly with the hive and it's not rocket science to mount them in some way.

My next hive is going to be similar but I propose to change the wall structure to thinner timber for the sandwich but with 50mm of Kingspan for the insulation layer. This should provide at least the same level of insulation but reduce the hive weight significantly. In due course a second set of observations from this hive should also provide a comparison.

Many thanks for your help.

Phil

 

[pargyle]

Yes, Luminos?

(And haven't I asked you not to call me that in public?)

Dusty

Shirley not ?

 

[user 6228]

whats the roof construction?

 

[pargyle]

whats the roof construction?

Double skin timber with 30mm HD Polystyrene filling covered in roofing felt - its an apex so that I can fit a rapid feeder above the crown boards if necessary.

 

[user 6228]

Double skin timber with 30mm HD Polystyrene filling covered in roofing felt - its an apex so that I can fit a rapid feeder above the crown boards if necessary.

have you left any ventilation holes in the roof? (no is a good answer )

 

[pargyle]

have you left any ventilation holes in the roof? (no is a good answer )

No ventilation holes in the roof at present - I wasn't going to put any in. The roof actually seals down on the sides of the hive with a polyurethane gasket so it's pretty much sealed. The hive entrance is a periscope so although the entrance holes are at high level the actual entrance is low - so no uneccessary heat loss there either.

My total thinking was that I wanted a very stable environment for the bees - with ventilation only at low level and able to be controlled - no significant through flow of air through the colony. They won't suffocate as CO2 is heavier than air and will drop in the hive. My major concern was condensation but I figured that if I could provide a box that's well sealed at the top and well insulated in the walls and roof then there should not be any significant temperature variation between the hive atmosphere and the walls/roof and as such undue condensation should not form.

There's also room in the roof space for additional kingspan insulation above the crown board in winter - I could easily get another 50mm of insulation in there if necessary.

Thanks for your continuing thoughts ... Phi

 

[BeeJayBee]

I figured that if I could provide a box that's well sealed at the top and well insulated in the walls and roof then there should not be any significant temperature variation between the hive atmosphere and the walls/roof and as such undue condensation should not form.

Sounds like a good plan.

My next hive is going to be similar but I propose to change the wall structure to thinner timber for the sandwich but with 50mm of Kingspan for the insulation layer. This should provide at least the same level of insulation but reduce the hive weight significantly. In due course a second set of observations from this hive should also provide a comparison.

Just a thought - Derek is the expert. But is there any reason why you couldn't cover the inner surface with a layer of thick polythene instead of using ply? The sort of stuff used for mini greenhouses, you can buy it by the metre. Fasten it together with gaffer tape or foil tape.

 

[madasafish]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminos
...honey??

Yes, Luminos?

(And haven't I asked you not to call me that in public?)

Dusty

Copyright is held by Aldi Stores - courtesy of Neighbours on Channel 5 *

(Wife is avid fan - the shame ).

You owe Aldi £1,000 for breaking the copyright.....

And Luminos' on screen name is Di (pronounced Dee) . You of course are Al.

 

[pargyle]

Sounds like a good plan.

Just a thought - Derek is the expert. But is there any reason why you couldn't cover the inner surface with a layer of thick polythene instead of using ply? The sort of stuff used for mini greenhouses, you can buy it by the metre. Fasten it together with gaffer tape or foil tape.

No - From a construction point of view I can't see any reason why not but the 'sandwich' construction with timber does make for a very solid structure - my only concern with the current hive is the weight and once the sandwich is sealed up there are no crevices for any infestation to flourish. As long as the edges of the polythene could be sealed with the foil tape then this would achieve the same effect.

It would be interesting to see what the bees did with the polythene as there would be no need for them to propolise it. I actually 'seal' the timber on the inside of my hives with a mixture of frame scrapings (propolis, bits of wax, timber etc. all dissolved in meths) - two coats on the internal hive surface. It looks just like a 'used' hive, smells absolutely lovely/beeish and saves them from having to propolise it all themselves. The meths evaporates almost immediately just leaving the 'mixture' to dry on the interior walls. There's no reason why the 'mixture' could not be applied to the polythene to disguise the 'manmade' surface.

 

[user 6228]

Sounds like a good plan.

Just a thought - Derek is the expert. But is there any reason why you couldn't cover the inner surface with a layer of thick polythene instead of using ply? The sort of stuff used for mini greenhouses, you can buy it by the metre. Fasten it together with gaffer tape or foil tape.

In reality you dont anything more than wallpaper coated in a water proof paint( paint on propolis?) to stop them gnawing. The coating on kingspan or reticel is just treated paper, and it works. Wood gives you thermal mass as well as just mass.