32mm Brood frame spacing

[PBee]

The original objective was to change to point spacing in the brood box (as described in Killion/BA) to speed up inspections without the use of smoke. It developed into using 32mm spacing (25mm straight frame with 7mm spacers) allowing extra brood space in the same volume. The results so far are promising - along with the extra space and ease/speed of replacing frames, positioning the lower spacer under the fulcrum reduces possibility of crushing bees when tilting boxes or moving hives.

 

[Tom Bick]

Are the spacers upholstery nails? Either way they perhaps work better than screws that I use as the screws can hook over each other.

 

[PBee]

They are from Holtermann in Germany - frame spacers that come in 5mm and 7mm. I bought 7000 which were opened coming through England by HM customs - must have looked suspect as they crossed JBM's desk!

 

[REDWOOD]

I would count them if I was you, JMB Might have taken a few for testing

 

[REDWOOD]

I do like the spacers less chance of them crushing bees than hoffmans, I'am getting sick of blowing bees from between the frames. How much did they cost

 

[MuswellMetro]

what are the 5mm ones used for?

 

[PBee]

I do like the spacers less chance of them crushing bees than hoffmans, I'am getting sick of blowing bees from between the frames. How much did they cost

28 euro/1000

what are the 5mm ones used for?

Probably for their 27mm frames or other wider frames. I bought my frames from France - much cheaper and in my experience more often better quality wood. They use mostly castellated boxes though, which may be the reason for the 25mm wide frames.

 

[Tom Bick]

They are from Holtermann in Germany - frame spacers that come in 5mm and 7mm. I bought 7000 which were opened coming through England by HM customs - must have looked suspect as they crossed JBM's desk!

Thanks I looked at upholstery nails and they tend to average out at 4-5mm, for my frames I needed 6mm as I wanted to keep 34mm width and maintain 22mm frame.

I also fitted the screws each side of the frames that made the hooking together a slight problem at first but the extra screws made the frames compatible with hoffman frames.

Even with my screws been slightly more clumber some than your designed for purpose spacers I found inspections somewhat easier without the Hoffman side bars getting in the way.

I dont know about 32mm spacing other than it may reduce some drone comb? But I have considered wider spacing similar I guess to narrow ends and I understand the original intended spacing for the national hive and provide a deeper honey ark in the bb.

 

[PBee]

.....
I dont know about 32mm spacing other than it may reduce some drone comb? But I have considered wider spacing similar I guess to narrow ends and I understand the original intended spacing for the national hive and provide a deeper honey ark in the bb.

To be honest, if the 27mm frames from Holtermann had been cheaper I would have stayed with 34/35mm spacing. There are lots of different styles of spacers in Europe but those 'mushroom head' spacers seemed to me to be best for maintaining the exact distance. There are other claimed benefits for narrow spacing such as better wintering because of the narrower gaps, less nosema if it's a problem, and bees more inclined to lay the frame full of brood and store the honey above. These are all anecdotal as far as I know, although Michael Bush mentions some Russian research on the Nosema claim. http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

 

[MuswellMetro]

Thanks I looked at upholstery nails and they tend to average out at 4-5mm, for my frames I needed 6mm as I wanted to keep 34mm width and maintain 22mm frame.

I also fitted the screws each side of the frames that made the hooking together a slight problem at first but the extra screws made the frames compatible with hoffman frames.

Even with my screws been slightly more clumber some than your designed for purpose spacers I found inspections somewhat easier without the Hoffman side bars getting in the way.

I dont know about 32mm spacing other than it may reduce some drone comb? But I have considered wider spacing similar I guess to narrow ends and I understand the original intended spacing for the national hive and provide a deeper honey ark in the bb.

i have some of Dave Cushmans 32mm castelations as at one time i was thinking of trying 4.9mm cell size and 32mm spacing with a feral swarm , The 32 spacing was recommed by d cushmann if i used 49mm spacing when i talked to him on the bibba stand , but the colony went queenless

 

[beekeeping4you]

Hi PBee,

Do I see a bee space under the bottombar?

Regards
Reiner

 

[Little John]

Are the spacers upholstery nails? Either way they perhaps work better than screws that I use as the screws can hook over each other.

I don't understand how this is possible. Sounds like you've put screws on both sides of the frame ... ? If so, not a good idea.

One side only (but, alternate sides, of course - like the 'sharp edge' of Hoffman frame sides).

LJ

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I would count them if I was you, JMB Might have taken a few for testing

I resemble that remark! look like the old fashioned hobnails that some may have used on hunting boots.

I don't understand how this is possible. Sounds like you've put screws on both sides of the frame ... ? If so, not a good idea.

One side only (but, alternate sides, of course - like the 'sharp edge' of Hoffman frame sides).

LJ

How can you tell that both are on one side - can only see one side of the frames - but even with 'Hoffman style' alternate spacers you'd have to have two in every frame just on opposite sides

 

[Tom Bick]

I don't understand how this is possible. Sounds like you've put screws on both sides of the frame ... ? If so, not a good idea.

One side only (but, alternate sides, of course - like the 'sharp edge' of Hoffman frame sides).

LJ

Yes thats right screws on both sides of the frame.

I experimented with one screw on each side with the adjacent screw on the opposite side as you say like the pointy end on Hoffman’s but this system although a good one in practice has its draw backs. One important failing to me was it made the frames non compatible with hoffman’s and as I work with a few beekeepers I needed to be able to mix my homemade frames and hoffman’s. It would also require a spacer or screw at each opposite side of a brood box or super, not a big job but never the less required all the same although it could be possible to work without.

The two screws come together easily and work well easy to fit but they can hook over one another and that was the awkward bit at first but once you get over that they are fine. I think the spacers that PBee has are great and perhaps better than screws but for me the 4 screws work just fine right now with hardly any bees crushed replacing frames all season.

 

[Tom Bick]

To be honest, if the 27mm frames from Holtermann had been cheaper I would have stayed with 34/35mm spacing. There are lots of different styles of spacers in Europe but those 'mushroom head' spacers seemed to me to be best for maintaining the exact distance. There are other claimed benefits for narrow spacing such as better wintering because of the narrower gaps, less nosema if it's a problem, and bees more inclined to lay the frame full of brood and store the honey above. These are all anecdotal as far as I know, although Michael Bush mentions some Russian research on the Nosema claim. http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

Thanks for the info PBee my motivation for my frames with spacers was one of cost and a drive to be more self sufficient. Also if a joiner is not able to make a few frames then its time to stop working.That’s a great website bushfarms. Com full of great information.

 

[pargyle]

I used upholstery nails (small ones) to space my home made frames - both sides of the frame so that adjacent frames butt up to each other only at the point of each pair of domed upholstery nails. I have made the side bars like Hoffmans with the wider bit at the top. Despite having bees that seem to be world proplising champions it's really easy to separate the frames, the nails worked really well.

Only downside I've found with making my own frames is that you really need to get them dead square or they can hang at an angle in the hive. I bought a pack of 50 Thornes seconds in their sale and I'm going to try them next year. For what it cost compared to the time it takes to machine my own .... no contest really.

 

[PBee]

Hi PBee,

Do I see a bee space under the bottombar?

Regards
Reiner

The bottom bars are of slightly odd construction, but at 80c for a preassembled and wired frame they were the best value I could find by some margin. On the plus side the wood is stronger/more dense than samples from Holtermann or Graze etc and the side bars do not 'bow' when tensioning wires.

 

[Little John]

How can you tell that both are on one side - can only see one side of the frames

The clue is in the verb I used: "sounds like", as opposed to "looks like".

but even with 'Hoffman style' alternate spacers you'd have to have two in every frame just on opposite sides

This is one of those situations where a picture would speak a thousand words ...

In order to make things easier to understand (I hope) - imagine that these screws are being inserted into the sides of the frame lugs, rather than as in the photo.

So - inserting screws into the sides of both lugs, on both sides of the frame, involves using four screws. The problem with this approach is that one is reliant upon the position of the heads of the screws on adjacent frames 'matching-up'. If they don't, then they'll ride over each other.

My approach (when mixing DN1's wth DN4's) is to insert just one screw into the side of one lug on each side of the frame - the side chosen being that of the 'sharp' Hoffman moulding. 'Diametricially opposite' is the term I perhaps could have used. And yes - two screws are indeed used per frame ... (instead of four).

But as Tom has written, he's tried that, but has found that this approach has it's drawbacks.

Inserting screws into the lug sides also has it's drawbacks ...

LJ

 

[Tom Bick]

I hope the photo helps John.

What I may do next time is to raise the screws closer to the top rail as its when replacing the frames sometimes the screw heads hook over each other. Its no great problem but I think if they were higher up they will be easier to see. Getting the screw heads to line up is one of the easier parts of the construction.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Good idea to use the staples, Tom. Much easier than eyelets.