20kg of stores for winter

[user 6228]

.
What means winter in those reports? Has it spring and autumn included?
How many months is winter?

Polad have quite harsh winter. In Norway it is raining water most of the time.
Sea is warm all the year around.

Why don't you know normal consumption in Britain?

Norway is a big place, with different climates. The southern, western coastal low lying regions below 60N will be similar to UK. You can find the reports on the internet.

 

[busybee53]

How complicated this thread has become. I've only had one winter with bees and tried hefting. If I can lift the hive easily I will know it is too light. I struggled with really full supers this summer so I know that if there are enough stores I will be barely able to lift the hive at all.

I am worried about the feeding too early bit though. Yesterday there was hardly any space to lay because they have been putting stores in the brood box. This makes the stores close for the winter which is good.

I am hoping that when the queen starts laying again she will use the space which is now occupied by sealed brood. She had a rest this time last year too so I am not over worried about lack of eggs or unsealed brood at the mo.

But I am hoping that I did not feed too early and that they will not put stores in the space vacated when the sealed brood hatches. Are there any words of encouragement for me? (or not?)

 

[Into the lions den]

The danger of overfeeding advanced by a few, and basically backed up in quoting smaller weights of feed from others is very wise counsel.

We remove some frames of stores from the broodnest ( may sound awful, but it works perfectly well) and replace with foundation in September, and give a single feed of approx 10 litres (14Kg) of invert syrup.

Even with store depletion and foundation adding, this single feed is normally adequate to see the bees through to March. If there is a problem with the hives being light then add fondant in mid winter, to act as a bridge across allthe active seams of bees.

Feeding more than this amount DOES cause a reduction in over wintering strength and a lower spring bee count. The brood raised in cells they would otherwise plug out with stores can be absolutely crucial in determining the viability or otherwise of the colony at 'crossover day' in the spring. ( Crossover day is the point at which the rate of young bees hatching starts to exceed the rate of old ones dying off.......when the colony actually begins to develop.)

Ripening and capping of the syrup is pretty well irrelevant with invert syrup.

Even in Scotland our bees will work syrup in wooden hives well into November, and in Poly hives into a normal December, albeit a bit perfunctorily, and will be up there taking any residues throughout winter on especially mild days.

Back to the foundation in the nest. Try it, even if maybe only three frames of it (not hard together, put them interspaced with brood combs ) give a feed, and see what happens. The most perfect combs of the year, thats what happens. No drones wanted, so no drone cells drawn, just perfect worker combs. A nice generation of clean brrod in them and they are set well for winter. Depending on the colony we can do up to 7 frames of foundation. Would not go back to the traditional way of leaving the nest undisturbed and feeding till they will take no more. Significantly poorer wintering that way.

Have a few blocks of fondant handy from Christmas onwards and just keep an eye on the girls. Its just prudent husbandry. ( I have some fondant in stock, have had it for 2 years. Last two winters not one colony has needed the extra.....out of 2000 or so)

Mush is being made of the Canadian idea of wintering weight. Even thinking of comparing the advice is unwise as you are dealing with different bees, different colony size, and radically different climate. In Canada, especially the prairie provinces, winters are long and intense and often visiting the bees is impossible up to as late as April. They normally use very vigorous Italian bees which use more food anyway, and the usual way was to wrap/insulate the hives on skids (pallets) of four to keep them warm.....all things that increase stores consumption. Additionally in such cold the bees may well 'chimney' up through the boxes, leaving frames of stores unused, so you HAVE to go in heavy with the feed and assume it will not all be used.

 

[rae]

Back to the foundation in the nest. Try it, even if maybe only three frames of it (not hard together, put them interspaced with brood combs ) give a feed, and see what happens. The most perfect combs of the year, thats what happens. No drones wanted, so no drone cells drawn, just perfect worker combs. A nice generation of clean brrod in them and they are set well for winter. Depending on the colony we can do up to 7 frames of foundation. Would not go back to the traditional way of leaving the nest undisturbed and feeding till they will take no more. Significantly poorer wintering that way.

Interesting. Putting foundation in at this stage is absolutely not what I'd expect! I think I'll try it on 1 colony to start with!

 

[gavin]

Back to the foundation in the nest. Try it, even if maybe only three frames of it (not hard together, put them interspaced with brood combs ) give a feed, and see what happens. The most perfect combs of the year, thats what happens.

Wood as well as poly?

G.

 

[Into the lions den]

Yes...............come along some day and have a look. You have to do it in Sept with wooden hives, a bit later is still ok in poly, to about 15th Oct.

 

[Into the lions den]

Dates relate to eastern Scotland of course.....could go on longer and longer the further south east you go.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

ITLD - Sounds like a pretty decent plan and will probably try it out next year (if I remember), thanks

 

[gavin]

Yes...............come along some day and have a look. You have to do it in Sept with wooden hives, a bit later is still ok in poly, to about 15th Oct.

Will do! Was nearby this evening but I had to get back and cook the young lad's tea. Need a chat sometime anyway.

 

[BBG]

The danger of overfeeding advanced by a few, and basically backed up in quoting smaller weights of feed from others is very wise counsel.

We remove some frames of stores from the broodnest ( may sound awful, but it works perfectly well) and replace with foundation in September, and give a single feed of approx 10 litres (14Kg) of invert syrup. Etc, etc, etc.......

.

Thanks for that, confirms I remembered what was said very well.

Will follow this this winter.

Additionally; is this done on single brood only ?

And is the syrup Ambrosia ?

 

[Beeline]

I inserted a single frame of brood foundation in the middle of the nest (large'ish swarm) 2 weeks back and on inspection this last weekend discovered the best drawn, worker-only, comb laid corner to corner. A number of the old frames that came with the purchased nuc are full of drone brood and not very well laid up at all, so this new comb has definately stimulated her laying and increased my winter bees.

I'm going to migrate the old combs to the sides of the nest and continue to introduce a single undrawn frame whilst I feed this month.

I'm not advocating this procedure to anyone as it depends on the size of your nest - simply saying that my findings support the comments made by ITLD above.

BL

 

[Into the lions den]

Additionally; is this done on single brood only ?

We winter everything on singles. Not because doubles or one and a halfs are not at least as good, it is just a management thing with us, as we could not get round the numbers efficiently in time having to rake through two boxes hunting for her majesty in spring.

However, HAVE experimented with the same on doubles, even in exceptional cases adding a full new deep, almost akin to a so called Bailey change, in Sept, and so long as you are working with strong colonies it works just as well. do NOT stick the foundation into the bottom box of a double system at this time of year as they will largely ignore it.

And is the syrup Ambrosia ?

No. Ambrosia is seriously overpriced for what it is. We currently use Apisuc, a Belgian product which is very similar, and having done a lot of side by side trials can see little difference between Ambrosia, Api-Invert, Apisuc, InvertBee, and several other types. Only dud was a product called Tetrapi, sold through France, but according to my sources actually made in the UK. More and more buyers are moving over to the Belgian product. I covered this in another post related to fondants.

If you can get feeding at ANY reasonable price buy it in NOW, even stash away your spring feed. Sugar supplies are at crisis point and I heard this morning of one beekeeper being quoted £1260 a tonne for plain white granulated on forward order. those grouching about the odd 20p on a 2Kg bag should take note, and snap up your supply while it is available.

To cover myself for autumn and spring I am taking in 50 tonnes of Apisuc, first batch arrived today.

Another poster wisely interjected about colony strenght for the foundation adding. I am of course talking about normal strength mature colonies returning from the heather, not nucleii still in build up. You can, every week or 10 days, add ONE new comb of foundation into the heart of the nest of a nucleus, indeed we do this to the nucleii we set up in early summer which did not make it up to strength in time to go to the heather (there are actually only 15 left, still in the mating apiary). These build up very well given trickle feeding, and draw comb with the same characterisitics mentioned earlier. Trickle feeding in this sense means to give them a litre or so once a week throughout late summer. very stimulative, and if allied to a modest flow from the balsam (no ivy flow up here) these laggards grow into reasonable colonies for winter, with nice fresh combs in the centre, ready to grow fast in the spring. Qualified of course by mentioning these are 5 frame Langstroth polystyrene nucs of the Tegart pattern from Canada, and are pretty cosy inside.

I am down at Cirencester talking on Friday evening, so if anyone reading this who is attending has any questions about this stuff please talk to me in person down there.

Murray

 

[Into the lions den]

Additionally; is this done on single brood only ?

We winter everything on singles. Not because doubles or one and a halfs are not at least as good, it is just a management thing with us, as we could not get round the numbers efficiently in time having to rake through two boxes hunting for her majesty in spring.

However, HAVE experimented with the same on doubles, even in exceptional cases adding a full new deep, almost akin to a so called Bailey change, in Sept, and so long as you are working with strong colonies it works just as well. do NOT stick the foundation into the bottom box of a double system at this time of year as they will largely ignore it.

And is the syrup Ambrosia ?

No. Ambrosia is seriously overpriced for what it is. We currently use Apisuc, a Belgian product which is very similar, and having done a lot of side by side trials can see little difference between Ambrosia, Api-Invert, Apisuc, InvertBee, and several other types. Only dud was a product called Tetrapi, sold through France, but according to my sources actually made in the UK. More and more buyers are moving over to the Belgian product. I covered this in another post related to fondants.

If you can get feeding at ANY reasonable price buy it in NOW, even stash away your spring feed. Sugar supplies are at crisis point and I heard this morning of one beekeeper being quoted £1260 a tonne for plain white granulated on forward order. those grouching about the odd 20p on a 2Kg bag should take note, and snap up your supply while it is available.

To cover myself for autumn and spring I am taking in 50 tonnes of Apisuc, first batch arrived today.

Another poster wisely interjected about colony strenght for the foundation adding. I am of course talking about normal strength mature colonies returning from the heather, not nucleii still in build up. You can, every week or 10 days, add ONE new comb of foundation into the heart of the nest of a nucleus, indeed we do this to the nucleii we set up in early summer which did not make it up to strength in time to go to the heather (there are actually only 15 left, still in the mating apiary). These build up very well given trickle feeding, and draw comb with the same characterisitics mentioned earlier. Trickle feeding in this sense means to give them a litre or so once a week throughout late summer. very stimulative, and if allied to a modest flow from the balsam (no ivy flow up here) these laggards grow into reasonable colonies for winter, with nice fresh combs in the centre, ready to grow fast in the spring. Qualified of course by mentioning these are 5 frame Langstroth polystyrene nucs of the Tegart pattern from Canada, and are pretty cosy inside.

I am down at Cirencester talking on Friday evening, so if anyone reading this who is attending has any questions about this stuff please talk to me in person down there.

Murray

 

[dpearce4]

We remove some frames of stores from the broodnest ( may sound awful, but it works perfectly well) and replace with foundation in September, and give a single feed of approx 10 litres (14Kg) of invert syrup.

Even with store depletion and foundation adding, this single feed is normally adequate to see the bees through to March. If there is a problem with the hives being light then add fondant in mid winter, to act as a bridge across allthe active seams of bees.

Feeding more than this amount DOES cause a reduction in over wintering strength and a lower spring bee count. The brood raised in cells they would otherwise plug out with stores can be absolutely crucial in determining the viability or otherwise of the colony at 'crossover day' in the spring. ( Crossover day is the point at which the rate of young bees hatching starts to exceed the rate of old ones dying off.......when the colony actually begins to develop.)

Ripening and capping of the syrup is pretty well irrelevant with invert syrup.

Even in Scotland our bees will work syrup in wooden hives well into November, and in Poly hives into a normal December, albeit a bit perfunctorily, and will be up there taking any residues throughout winter on especially mild days.

Back to the foundation in the nest. Try it, even if maybe only three frames of it (not hard together, put them interspaced with brood combs ) give a feed, and see what happens. The most perfect combs of the year, thats what happens. No drones wanted, so no drone cells drawn, just perfect worker combs. A nice generation of clean brrod in them and they are set well for winter. Depending on the colony we can do up to 7 frames of foundation. Would not go back to the traditional way of leaving the nest undisturbed and feeding till they will take no more. Significantly poorer wintering that way.

Have a few blocks of fondant handy from Christmas onwards and just keep an eye on the girls. Its just prudent husbandry. ( I have some fondant in stock, have had it for 2 years. Last two winters not one colony has needed the extra.....out of 2000 or so)

Mush is being made of the Canadian idea of wintering weight. Even thinking of comparing the advice is unwise as you are dealing with different bees, different colony size, and radically different climate. In Canada, especially the prairie provinces, winters are long and intense and often visiting the bees is impossible up to as late as April. They normally use very vigorous Italian bees which use more food anyway, and the usual way was to wrap/insulate the hives on skids (pallets) of four to keep them warm.....all things that increase stores consumption. Additionally in such cold the bees may well 'chimney' up through the boxes, leaving frames of stores unused, so you HAVE to go in heavy with the feed and assume it will not all be used.

I gave this a Try last week when i put in some apilife var to a hive. had 2 frames undrawn and 3 only partly drawn and a little low on stores, i moved the 2 undrawn farmes into the brood spaced with capped and left the slightly undrawn frames at the outside. Wow seriously impressed, the 2 undrawn frames are drawn and full of eggs, and the 3 partly drawn are full drawn and part full of capped stores, i used an ashcroft sort of feeder and it had 3kg of sugar mixed 1:1 and they had taken it all in 24hrs and there were no deaths but the feeder was so full of bees i couldnt put more syrup in.

have now done it with a second hive but have put in 3 new frames and added 4kg sugar 1:1. i wanted to do 4 frames but 2 of the ones i wanted to change had capped brood so left those till next week and will do it next week with them when the brood has hatched.

what should i do with the capped stores though as they are in really dark old crappy brood wax i really would not like to extract it. should i save it for 2 weeks and then put it above the crown board for them to take back down or shall i just get rid?

 

[BBG]

Additionally; is this done on single brood only ?

We winter everything on singles. Not because doubles or one and a halfs are not at least as good, it is just a management thing with us, as we could not get round the numbers efficiently in time having to rake through two boxes hunting for her majesty in spring.

However, HAVE experimented with the same on doubles, even in exceptional cases adding a full new deep, almost akin to a so called Bailey change, in Sept, and so long as you are working with strong colonies it works just as well. do NOT stick the foundation into the bottom box of a double system at this time of year as they will largely ignore it.

And is the syrup Ambrosia ?

No. Ambrosia is seriously overpriced for what it is. We currently use Apisuc, a Belgian product which is very similar, and having done a lot of side by side trials can see little difference between Ambrosia, Api-Invert, Apisuc, InvertBee, and several other types. Only dud was a product called Tetrapi, sold through France, but according to my sources actually made in the UK. More and more buyers are moving over to the Belgian product. I covered this in another post related to fondants.

If you can get feeding at ANY reasonable price buy it in NOW, even stash away your spring feed. Sugar supplies are at crisis point and I heard this morning of one beekeeper being quoted £1260 a tonne for plain white granulated on forward order. those grouching about the odd 20p on a 2Kg bag should take note, and snap up your supply while it is available.

To cover myself for autumn and spring I am taking in 50 tonnes of Apisuc, first batch arrived today.

Another poster wisely interjected about colony strenght for the foundation adding. I am of course talking about normal strength mature colonies returning from the heather, not nucleii still in build up. You can, every week or 10 days, add ONE new comb of foundation into the heart of the nest of a nucleus, indeed we do this to the nucleii we set up in early summer which did not make it up to strength in time to go to the heather (there are actually only 15 left, still in the mating apiary). These build up very well given trickle feeding, and draw comb with the same characterisitics mentioned earlier. Trickle feeding in this sense means to give them a litre or so once a week throughout late summer. very stimulative, and if allied to a modest flow from the balsam (no ivy flow up here) these laggards grow into reasonable colonies for winter, with nice fresh combs in the centre, ready to grow fast in the spring. Qualified of course by mentioning these are 5 frame Langstroth polystyrene nucs of the Tegart pattern from Canada, and are pretty cosy inside.

I am down at Cirencester talking on Friday evening, so if anyone reading this who is attending has any questions about this stuff please talk to me in person down there.

Murray

Thank you very much for the information, have just returned and seen it.

Unfortunately could not make your talk.

Are you giving any others in the future and where please.

 

[Chris Luck]

Not exactly on topic but.....

If you can get feeding at ANY reasonable price buy it in NOW, even stash away your spring feed. Sugar supplies are at crisis point and I heard this morning of one beekeeper being quoted £1260 a tonne for plain white granulated on forward order. those grouching about the odd 20p on a 2Kg bag should take note, and snap up your supply while it is available.

Why would sugar prices be set to increase when the global market price is falling?

Chris

 

[Teemore]

Prices increase because of Commodity Speculators.....

 

[Chris Luck]

But the price is going down Teemore and that is the price the commodity traders are buying and selling at, (with their spread). It's about the same price now as it was around mid November 2010.

previous 12 months and effectively falling since July..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/commodities/144828/twelve_month.stm

Chris

 

[itma]

But the price is going down Teemore and that is the price the commodity traders are buying and selling at, (with their spread). It's about the same price now as it was around mid November 2010.

previous 12 months and effectively falling since July..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/commodities/144828/twelve_month.stm

Chris

Yes but that chart is for *futures* prices - price now for supply at a specified future time (1 month, 3 months, magic 'witching hour' -- dunno how that particular market works). Thing is, its not the 'spot' market which is priced for delivery immediately.
Sure shop sugar prices *ought* to come down in the coming months (based on that chart), but it doesn't mean that they may not rise further before then.
Agreed it doesn't look like any reason to stock up though.

 

[Into the lions den]

Not exactly on topic but.....



Why would sugar prices be set to increase when the global market price is falling?

Chris

Dont really know, but the quotes for all forms of bee feed are spiralling, and the sugar companies across the board are actually unable to supply. I had to help out a European friend with 5 whole tankerloads from my source in Belgium as the big buys over there could not find the sugar to offer. Left them so tight that even I have then struggled to get the amount I want to have in stock.

Also.......world commodity price and EU price can be very different beasts.

There IS a shortage........November is the time of year when all the producers who are desperate for cash try to offload........remains to be seen where the market goes as apparently the harvest will not meet demand for a full year. Tate and Lyle were cancelling contracts, unable to supply, and not taking on any new clients. Tells you a bit about how the market is.

IF, and it is a big if, the world crop is bigger than expected perhaps the price will stabilise.

Now then....of greatly more importance.......how are we going to get the price of honey to spiral at the same rate as all out inputs? (Fuel, Syrup, bee supplies..............all going up fast.)