14 x 12 - Do they cut down swarming?

[Beeline]

I'm interested to know from those who have some experience with colonies on both National Standard Broods and 14 x 12 - have they experienced a reduction in swarming with those on 14 x 12.

Or, is AS pretty much standard swarm management for most each year whether on single broods, double broods or 14 x 12?

Although I moved some of mine from single BS broods onto doubles this year it was probably too late. Does the 14 x 12 give you that breather throughout the year?

Granted there are always exceptions out there where colonies outgrow 14 x 12 or double brood etc., but I'm talking the norm here.

 

[oliver90owner]

from those who have some experience with colonies on both National Standard Broods and 14 x 12 -

I changed to 14 x 12 fairly shortly after starting to keep bees.

I changed for several reasons, but one was the rediculously small broods with WBCs. A step down, even from standard deep Nationals, the WBCs swarmed on me due to shortage of brooding space, I was sure. Interpolation clearly suggests that deeps come somewhere between WBC and 14 x 12 boxes.

I did not need to compare my deeps with 14 x 12 from that perspective. OMFs was another reason for the change, along with a few other considerations at the time.

You could also widen your question to commercials and the Langstroth formats. Brood space IS important. No 'norms', just a range - and it can be a wide one dependent on several other factors.

Swarm management or preferably swarm avoidance is always an on-going requirement for a bekeper if they wish to maximise their crop.

 

[For want of a better word]

NO .. not at all !
Nor does brood + 1/2 OR double brood !

Bees kept in Dadant / Commercials / Langsrtoths ... as above

But if you cram the bees into not enough space the probability is that they are more presupposed to swarm because they need more space.
As Dear ol' Tractor Man would say THINK ABOUT IT !!!

 

[For want of a better word]

As Dear ol' Tractor Man would say THINK ABOUT IT !!!


There you go he beat me to it. !!!

However there are some who like to keep bees in the smaller boxed on the standard 10 frame WBC... just have to go to double brood if you keep the highly prolific types of bees.
My littlest girl (11) likes the lighter boxes and all the messing around with lifts and the pretty looks of her WBC... big dolls house for bees !!

to return to the OP... No makes not a jot of difference as long as they are given room to e x p a n d !

 

[Luminos]

I've changed to 14 x 12 - 1 colony have swarmed, 3 didn't - IMVLE I think that if you have swarmy bees they'll swarm anyway, if they think they don't have enough space.

 

[Pete D]

No

 

[Tom Bick]

When I made hives approx 80% of new beekeepers would chose the 14x12 and I think hivemaker has a similar figure. Of all my customers I was able to talk to them they nearly all said they have been told it reduces swarming. I would often say that the extra size would help but it is only one factor and other factors play a big part in swarming.

I think for new beekeepers the thought of bees swarming is a scary one but in time you gain experience and swarm control becomes not such a problem.

 

[oliver90owner]

Seems to ne to be some cross-purposes here.

By definition bees will swarm. It is the only way for them to spread naturally, even continue at the same number of colonies. It is called reproduction; without it bees would either have evolved some other method of inhabiting a new area (or of simply propogating within an area) or they would not be here, as they are, now.

Bees kept nowadays are not the natural (take note you supposed 'natural'beekeepers) strains some might have expected.

Up until about 150 years ago bees were good if they were swarmy; since the introduction of the framed hive they have been bred to reduce swarminess, particularly since the demise of skep beekeeping for serious honey production; Yes, some strains are swarmier than others and can leave before a brood box is congested even.

There is a whole spectrum of strains, but think about it simplistically - if you put identical colonies in boxes ranging from apidae to double Langstroth jumbos, what would you expect to happen? Even better, restrict the time frame as well.

RAB

 

[victor meldrew]

I have used 14x12s for a year or two now .
The bees seem to build to fill the frames just as quickly as they did 14x8s
Swarming preparations seem to happen on 'q' just as before.
The main advantage is a noticeable increase in yield ,probably due to a larger work force afforded by the 14x12s?
I honestly feel that a 14x12 frame of stores is no more difficult to handle in spite of reports to the contrary!
VM


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[psafloyd]

I am running two this year (one made by Tom and another a std BB I have adapted) and I would say no. This year, everything seems to want to swarm. Even me...

 

[psafloyd]

I have used 14x12s for a year or two now .
The bees seem to build to fill the frames just as quickly as they did 14x8s
Swarming preparations seem to happen on 'q' just as before.
The main advantage is a noticeable increase in yield ,probably due to a larger work force afforded by the 14x12s?
I honestly feel that a 14x12 frame of stores is no more difficult to handle in spite of reports to the contrary!
VM


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Frame's not too bad, but they're bloody heavy when doing an AS or uniting...

 

[Pete D]

Frame's not too bad, but they're bloody heavy when doing an AS or uniting...

I find mine are heavy September through to early spring when I hope they are full of stores, this doesnt cause many problems as I dont tend to move them during that period. I get a super on them as soon as possible in an effort to lighten the load. I have also taken to removing the odd full frame of stores and replacing it with drawn comb to help with the build up by giving laying space. The removed frames come in great for rearing Nuc's and feeding swarms after a few days.
I did an AS at the weekend with brood on 11 frames although the outside 2 were only on the inner face. A box full of brood was light compared to the 3 supers I had to shift to get at it.
They may help with reducing swarming but this is hard to prove / disprove.
New young queens, plenty of space at the right time and bees of a less swarmy nature would help more.
I believe that by the middle of July all my colonies that built up rapidly and are capable of giving a honey crop will have made swarm plans, I run both sizes of national and it wont matter which size they are in.

 

[Polyanwood]

I don't think the type of box makes much difference to experienced beekeepers, but I do think that most beginners find it easiler to learn on 14 x 12 rather than on double brood, which is why i think they have become popular.

 

[MonseigneurBienvenu]

I am running two this year (one made by Tom and another a std BB I have adapted) and I would say no. This year, everything seems to want to swarm. Even me...

I like this: back to reality!

Personally, I was one of the 80% wanting a 14x12 to start with. After actually handling standard deep frames, I have decided that local beeks' gear compatibility, lighter frames for those shaky newbie inspections that may already take ages, and the option of moving a size up with an eke outweighed the possible argument that if you get prolific bees a standard deep isn't going to cope as well. To be honest though, I still feel that I may as well have tossed a coin. Notice, also, all these things I've mentioned are different for everyone!

One thing I've discovered - being handy with tools and ready to play with mods definitely makes choices (and the fun experimentation) easier, as well as cheaper. But that's just me, perhaps; I disagree with "choose the kit and never change" ideal at this point in time. It's like a University degree being a choice for life - doesn't have to be! (If I change my mind, I'll let you know )

 

[psafloyd]

I don't think the type of box makes much difference to experienced beekeepers, but I do think that most beginners find it easiler to learn on 14 x 12 rather than on double brood, which is why i think they have become popular.

Ah, quite possible. I didn't and like the standard BB, but thought I'd try it as an experiment. I currently don't have any 14 x 12 nucs, though, so can't use frames for supplies. But that's a bridge I will cross once I've decided if I like them.

However, I don't think I will making that decision this year.

 

[psafloyd]

I don't think the type of box makes much difference to experienced beekeepers, but I do think that most beginners find it easiler to learn on 14 x 12 rather than on double brood, which is why i think they have become popular.

Ah, quite possible. I didn't and like the standard BB, but thought I'd try it as an experiment. I currently don't have any 14 x 12 nucs, though, so can't use frames for supplies. But that's a bridge I will cross once I've decided if I like them.

However, I don't think I will making that decision this year.

 

[peteinwilts]

I run Nats and 14x12

A 'good' 14x12 hive is great, but with a smaller set of bees out of a NUC or an AS, it can take quite a while to build up. One of my hives is only just full size and it was created at the beginning of last year.
It is probably the strain of bee, as a 'good' strain will fill it quite quickly, but you will probably find as I do it is the same strain that wants to be off as soon as it hits 7 frames.

Weekend before last (summer!), many of my hives decided they wanted to swarm (I AS'd almost all in time!)... double national brood size, single national brood size and 14x12's, even one that had only 5 frames of brood. Only the smallest hives, and those that have already requeened were not interested. It is not always the size of the colony, but the desire to reproduce.

I find swarming at 6-7 frames on 14x12's is extremely common amongst my multi strained bees.

I have a 'few' back issues, and I find that inspecting a number of 14x12's in a row seems to put a big strain on the back. I don't find I have the same problem with nationals.

I also find some bees can be messy when living on 14x12 frames, including creating short cuts through the wax. Once the bees are through, they create tunnels of brace comb which really mess things up.... also, frames laden with honey will sag as you turn them over to inspect.

14x12's do not go visiting other farms in season! 14x12 AS splits do not move, whilst the nats go away for three weeks before bringing them back to where I want them

14x12 hives created more honey last year than the nationals. However, I also lost more 14x12 hives than nationals over winter.

swings and roundabouts. I like 'good' 14x12 hives, but the combination of the above puts me in favour of nationals. I will continue to use a small number of 14x12's until my 14x12 kit is used up\run out, then probably run nationals throughout. (although I might change my mind )

 

[simonwig]

Really interesting and thoughtful reply Pete.

Simon

 

[alynewbee]

I moved from national brood to 14 x 12 after my first season. Don't think it made any difference, they still did exactly as they pleased despite the new 'des res'.

Aly

 

[Beeline]

All good information - thanks.

I think the 14 x 12 probably does provide a bit of a breather before they start thinking of swarming, when compared to those running on single broods, thinking of adding another brood (double) but, as you say, it probably won't get you through the swarming season.