Lots of dead bees on OMF

E&MBees · Jun 7, 2020

When I inspected and split (found QCs with eggs, therefore Q transferred to nuc) this hive this morning there were a reasonable number of dead bees on the OMF, more than I have noticed previously. Could the bees be from the laying worker colony that I shook outlast week that have tried entering and then been bunked off? Or is it normal summer losses? I didn't notice anything different physically about the dead bees, ie deformed wings etc. The hive was full, plenty of BIAs, pollen and stores.

I don't want to disturb the colony unnecessarily as they are in the process of re-queening.

Thanks

enrico · Jun 7, 2020

I hope it is the shaken out bees
E

Erichalfbee · Jun 7, 2020

E&MBees said:
there were a reasonable number of dead bees on the OMF, more than I have noticed previously. Could the bees be from the laying worker colony that I shook outlast week that have tried entering and then been bunked off?

Thanks

Possibly but I wouldn't worry too much about it as long as one of them wasn't the queen

E&MBees · Jun 7, 2020

Erichalfbee said:
Possibly but I wouldn't worry too much about it as long as one of them wasn't the queen

The queen is safely in a nuc, having split them today because of multiple queen cells.

E&MBees · Jun 7, 2020

enrico said:
I hope it is the shaken out bees
E

What else could it be down too? The bees looked healthy and there were no obvious signs of disease.

Swarm · Jun 7, 2020

CBPV can display signs of a normal looking colony but a carpet of dead bees on OMF and on the ground outside the entrance.

E&MBees · Jun 7, 2020

Swarm said:
CBPV can display signs of a normal looking colony but a carpet of dead bees on OMF and on the ground outside the entrance.

There wasn't a carpet, just more than I remembering seeing previously. How do I tell if it is CBPV?

pargyle · Jun 7, 2020

E&MBees said:
When I inspected and split (found QCs with eggs, therefore Q transferred to nuc) this hive this morning there were a reasonable number of dead bees on the OMF, more than I have noticed previously. Could the bees be from the laying worker colony that I shook outlast week that have tried entering and then been bunked off? Or is it normal summer losses? I didn't notice anything different physically about the dead bees, ie deformed wings etc. The hive was full, plenty of BIAs, pollen and stores.

I don't want to disturb the colony unnecessarily as they are in the process of re-queening.

Thanks

Probably a mixture. I doubt it's disease but stress is always a factor and can lead to dead bees - I don't think it will be CBPV, you've not seen any signs of it so far - you've done a lot of manipulations lately and that causes stress. If I was you I would now leave them alone to settle down and see what happens in time.

Agressive colonies are hard to deal with and also those with laying workers - it would seem that you've already lost one queen you have bought in trying to re-queen.

Sit tight, stay out of them and see what transpires. There's plenty of time still left in the season to get your colonies into shape.

E&MBees · Jun 7, 2020

pargyle said:
Probably a mixture. I doubt it's disease but stress is always a factor and can lead to dead bees - I don't think it will be CBPV, you've not seen any signs of it so far - you've done a lot of manipulations lately and that causes stress. If I was you I would now leave them alone to settle down and see what happens in time.

Agressive colonies are hard to deal with and also those with laying workers - it would seem that you've already lost one queen you have bought in trying to re-queen.

Sit tight, stay out of them and see what transpires. There's plenty of time still left in the season to get your colonies into shape.

What should I do about the QC's. Currently I have reduced to two. However, there were plenty of eggs and very young larvae for more QC's to be developed. I don't want them to swarm again, having caught them in the act at Easter.

pargyle · Jun 7, 2020

E&MBees said:
What should I do about the QC's. Currently I have reduced to two. However, there were plenty of eggs and very young larvae for more QC's to be developed. I don't want them to swarm again, having caught them in the act at Easter.

I'm almost in the same predicament as I now have a queen cell and a vrigin in one colony ...

I think I would still be inclined to leave them to get on with it. I rather doubt that they will swarm again ... You have separated the queen from the brood by putting her into the Nuc. There is no way they can swarm as they don't have a queen in there to swarm with .. they can't do much until there is a virgin emerged and the likelihood is that the first one to emerge will get mated and the other queen cell in there will be protected by the colony until the first virgin has got mated and started laying. You are not in a tradition Caste/secondary swarm situation. Leave them for a week and then have a look ...

E&MBees · Jun 7, 2020

pargyle said:
I'm almost in the same predicament as I now have a queen cell and a vrigin in one colony ...

I think I would still be inclined to leave them to get on with it. I rather doubt that they will swarm again ... You have separated the queen from the brood by putting her into the Nuc. There is no way they can swarm as they don't have a queen in there to swarm with .. they can't do much until there is a virgin emerged and the likelihood is that the first one to emerge will get mated and the other queen cell in there will be protected by the colony until the first virgin has got mated and started laying. You are not in a tradition Caste/secondary swarm situation. Leave them for a week and then have a look ...

Ok. Thank you.

E&MBees · Jun 9, 2020

Looked at the dead bees today, and carefully lifted off the qx, but didn’t touch the frames. Found some shiny bees. Have attached some photos.

Think it’s probably CBPV. I recorded some shaking, I think but not sure if I can attach video. Just tried, but not able too.

Absolutely devastated. How much more can go wrong?

Erichalfbee · Jun 9, 2020

Yes. I’m afraid so.
I have been in touch with Prof David Evans just yesterday. Fatshark on here and the Apiarist blog
He is doing a lot of research on CBPV
His advice is to not shake them out as sick and infected bees do not have a very good sense of direction and many will go into your other hives.
There is thought that some bees are more susceptible and there is definitely something in the Danish Buckfast.
Some colonies with a lot of TLC can pull through sufficiently to be recqueened later in the year.
The best thing of course is to quarantine them away from your other bees. Make sure they have enough food plenty of space and a mesh floor.

The other alternative is to kill them
I have had it in the past and it crops up sometimes years after the last bout in the biggest busiest colony while the others remain unscathed.

E&MBees · Jun 9, 2020

Erichalfbee said:
Yes. I’m afraid so.
I have been in touch with Prof David Evans just yesterday. Fatshark on here and the Apiarist blog
He is doing a lot of research on CBPV
His advice is to not shake them out as sick and infected bees do not have a very good sense of direction and many will go into your other hives.
There is thought that some bees are more susceptible and there is definitely something in the Danish Buckfast.
Some colonies with a lot of TLC can pull through sufficiently to be recqueened later in the year.
The best thing of course is to quarantine them away from your other bees. Make sure they have enough food plenty of space and a mesh floor.

The other alternative is to kill them
I have had it in the past and it crops up sometimes years after the last bout in the biggest busiest colony while the others remain unscathed.

Thanks Dani. It’s all going so wrong at the moment, what with the LW’s etc. I had to split the infected colony at the weekend as there were charged QC’s. The queen is now in a nuc. I didn’t check them, but I assume they are infected also.

I have a new colony of black bees, that I received as a swarm earlier in the week. They are not next to the infected bees, but what are the odds of them getting it too? They are in the garden though. I did wash and scorch the hive before they were put in it. It housed the LW colony.

I have left a message for our local bee inspector just in case.

Erichalfbee · Jun 9, 2020

A lot of black bees seem to be less affected. There is always the risk if they share the same apiary. Make sure you have a little distance between hives.
As for your split queen just make sure they are not dummied down and gave plenty of room. It’s all you can do.
It’s a bummer. You’ve had a hard time this year. Stick with it. Don’t do anything with your swarm. Just bring them on. There may be some decent genes there.
You never know.
Good your SBI might be involved. Don’t let him persuade you to shake them out. Lots of people are still advocating that on social media

bingevader · Jun 9, 2020

Have you given them more space?
Seems one of the only things you can do.
Bit like Coronavirus and social distancing.
You might reduce the chance of passing it on to each other.

E&MBees · Jun 9, 2020

bingevader said:
Have you given them more space?
Seems one of the only things you can do.
Bit like Coronavirus and social distancing.
You might reduce the chance of passing it on to each other.

I have given them as much space as I can. I made a split over the weekend, which reduced the population slightly. The hive also has two supers on. I don't have another brood box to add on though.

E&MBees · Jun 9, 2020

Cpbv

I have swept up all the dead bees around the hive. Would it help if I also swept off the OMF and gave it a quick scorch before putting the hive back on? I don't have a spare OMF to do a straight swap. From what I have researched up about CPBV it is passed on by close contact with infected bees, so by helping to remove them, would I improve the chances of survival?

The only problem is that I risk disturbing the re-queening process following a split to prevent swarming.

Erichalfbee · Jun 9, 2020

You've done all you can. They don't need another brood box
Yes sweep up the dead bees from in front of the hive but leave the floor alone

E&MBees · Jun 9, 2020

Erichalfbee said:
You've done all you can. They don't need another brood box
Yes sweep up the dead bees from in front of the hive but leave the floor alone

Thanks Dani, for your help and encouragement.

Lots of dead bees on OMF

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