Interesting way to graft
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susbees
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No quicker and kills older larvae which otherwise would turn into useful workers. Interesting that they don't appear to drown in the dilute honey (is it)?
drstitson
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very interesting - here we're taught to not flip the larvae over when grafting as that would mean that the spiracles already covered/blocked with brood food would then be uppermost and the clear ones submerged (assuming cups primed with royal jelly).
wonder what the take rate is.
wonder what the take rate is.
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Intriguing. I too would have thought the larva would drown but presumably they don't - do they just hold their breath until the bees lick the dilute honey away?
Priming with royal jelly is not held to be necessary by many beekeepers but perhaps it is with this method as the larva will have been "washed".
Worth a try to see how effective it is.
Priming with royal jelly is not held to be necessary by many beekeepers but perhaps it is with this method as the larva will have been "washed".
Worth a try to see how effective it is.
Hivemaker.
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I have found that it makes not a jot of difference if the larvae is turned around,or even sinks into the small pool of dilute royal jelly.
Poly Hive
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The conventional thinking is that the spiricles are on the top side and need to be kept clear lest they drown.
The President of BIBA was saying so only two weeks ago.
I too adhere to that when grafting, and on the basis of safety will keep to it.
When I have a miss on a graft I blame me not the bees.
PH
The President of BIBA was saying so only two weeks ago.
I too adhere to that when grafting, and on the basis of safety will keep to it.
When I have a miss on a graft I blame me not the bees.
PH
Hivemaker.
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As i said,not found it to make a jot of difference,and my average take is 18 out of 20,and i note that they state it makes no difference in the book by Eigil Holm,queen breeding and genetics,how to get better bees,also that experiments have been done that prove this to be so. John Atkinson also found the same,plus he found a small sable brush to be the best grafting tool,and the swiss cranked stainless steel tool to be not suitable for grafting small enough larvae.
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newportbuzz
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looks like a very weak hive to be grafting into. mabey thats just me but i have been taught to have the grafting hive overflowing with bees.
wonder what the liquid is?? (its 40% honey 60% boiled water at 30oC for use)
wonder what the liquid is?? (its 40% honey 60% boiled water at 30oC for use)
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BKF Admin
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What do members think regarding dry grafts v primed cells ?
drstitson
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"I too would have thought the larva would drown but presumably they don't - do they just hold their breath until the bees lick the dilute honey away?"
i suppose as newly hatched larvae have relatively smaller spiracles then maybe not a problem.
"The conventional thinking is that the spiricles are on the top side* and need to be kept clear lest they drown. The President of BIBA was saying so only two weeks ago. "
likewise - i was referring to advice of Clive de Bruyn.
*However, spiracles are present on both sides.
i suppose as newly hatched larvae have relatively smaller spiracles then maybe not a problem.
"The conventional thinking is that the spiricles are on the top side* and need to be kept clear lest they drown. The President of BIBA was saying so only two weeks ago. "
likewise - i was referring to advice of Clive de Bruyn.
*However, spiracles are present on both sides.
Poly Hive
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I always dry graft as "priming" was proven to be a waste of time in a paper some years ago so I never bothered with it. Nor to I give the cups to the bees the day before.
PH
PH
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Thanks ph.
I have always done the same as you.
So it must be my bad technique that gives me a less than perfect acceptance rate.
Time for a new reading glasses prescription for me then..
I have always done the same as you.
So it must be my bad technique that gives me a less than perfect acceptance rate.
Time for a new reading glasses prescription for me then..
Dry but pre-conditioned for me. I found I get better acceptance when the cups have been in a colony for 24 hrs + beforehand
Poly Hive
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I am working on a piece for this subject. Not wanting to pre-empt myself but where so many go wrong is they don't have enough bees in the starter box.
PH
PH
drstitson
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from what i've read to date the key is the strength of the cell builder
from beesource (quoting a michael palmer post):
"What have you created? A hopelessly queenless colony with only sealed and emerging bees. This colony is stocked to overflowing with young bees. It has all the field bees for added nutritional resources. The freak! Fly around the yard. Crawl all over the hive and out onto the ground. Listen hard...you'll almost hear them cry. And that's what you want."
Poly Hive
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I NEVER put brood in a cell starter, for fear there are eggs I have missed and the bees will be distracted.
Always young bees, broodless and queenless. And LOTS of them.
PH
Always young bees, broodless and queenless. And LOTS of them.
PH
Hivemaker.
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Makes little difference to the end result,and i have done both,but i now tend to wet graft using a tiny blob of diluted royal jelly,reason being is it acts as a nice soft sticky bed to slide the larvae onto,and also goes some way towards preventing the larvae from drying out too quickly in warm or hot weather,even athough the first row is covered with a damp cloth while the second row are done,only takes around 7 to 10 minutes for 20 grafts, from start to the time the grafts are placed in the cell builder.
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John Atkinson also found the same,plus he found a small sable brush to be the best grafting tool,and the swiss cranked stainless steel tool to be not suitable for grafting small enough larvae.
Well, I use the swiss one and I don't have problems with that (6 to 18 hours old larvae). It takes me less than 20 min for 100 cellcups.
What do members think regarding dry grafts v primed cells ?
I think the first one willbe more difficult for the beginners. Seems to me there is no difference in the accepting rates.
I make the starter (starter box) the day before the gaft ( I brush the bees in the evening and do the grafting early in the next morning). I found that just few ours in the starter is enough for the bees to accept the larvae and supply them with jelly, so 5-6 hours later I transfer them into the finisher/s.
Regards
Donnie
Well, I use the swiss one and I don't have problems with that (6 to 18 hours old larvae). It takes me less than 20 min for 100 cellcups.
What do members think regarding dry grafts v primed cells ?
I think the first one willbe more difficult for the beginners. Seems to me there is no difference in the accepting rates.
I make the starter (starter box) the day before the gaft ( I brush the bees in the evening and do the grafting early in the next morning). I found that just few ours in the starter is enough for the bees to accept the larvae and supply them with jelly, so 5-6 hours later I transfer them into the finisher/s.
Regards
Donnie
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