Wintering bees in the U.K.

[ken in NH]

Question/comment for all......... ""used to bee....'' Some people would not feed at all- would leave enough honey on - only 'steal' the extra. any advantage to feeding? And- the air temperature inside the hive actually is only a couple degrees warmer than outside. Condensation from the bees might hurt more than the 'airtight gains. Thoughts?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

ah, the usual uninformed obsession with condensation and 'ventilation'

 

[ken in NH]

AH- yes. I've seen dead colonies 'wet' and i like upper entrances for several reasons- including winter flights when the snow has closed the lower one. Never saw an advantage to less air, at least not here in NH

 

[ken in NH]

AH- yes. I've seen dead colonies 'wet' and i like upper entrances for several reasons- including winter flights when the snow has closed the lower one. Never saw an advantage to less air, at least not here in NH

I should mention that I've been obsessive since 1957

 

[Erichalfbee]

Can only speak for my bees kept in the U.K. in polystyrene. No top ventilation but more insulation on top than the sides so that any condensation runs down the walls.
Open mesh floor.
Only time I’ve seen a wet dead hive was when the colony failed and there weren’t enough bees to “keep warm”
As for temperature inside compared to ambient?
Taken one November

View attachment temp.mov

 

[ken in NH]

Can only speak for my bees kept in the U.K. in polystyrene. No top ventilation but more insulation on top than the sides so that any condensation runs down the walls.
Open mesh floor.
Only time I’ve seen a wet dead hive was when the colony failed and there weren’t enough bees to “keep warm”
As for temperature inside compared to ambient?
Taken one November

View attachment 41491

 

[ken in NH]

love the thermal image! scale/ temperatures? I had put a remote sensing thermometer inside a hive- and a second sensor outside the hive. My comment was based on that small difference

 

[Erichalfbee]

My comment was based on that small difference

Didn’t take temp difference but these are active moving bees. It was too cold for flying.
I’ve taken similar shots deeper in winter with ambient around 5 degrees.

 

[ericbeaumont]

any advantage to feeding?

Honey contains material - pollen and a variety of other essential ingredients - which will increase waste matter. Sugar is pure and produces far less waste.

Wintering bees need a carbohydrate to produce heat but as brood is absent, not the extras provided by honey that are essential for larvae.

air temperature inside the hive actually is only a couple degrees warmer than outside

Depends if the hive is poly (thermally efficient) or wood (thermally inefficient) and whether the top is open to allow nest heat to disappear.

Condensation from the bees might hurt more than the 'airtight gains

Sealed and insulated crownboard and roof will prevent condensation forming on the underside of the crownboard. Such a set-up will also increase hive humidity - which bees prefer - and which to some degree will curtail varroa reproduction.

Knowledge of the value of sealed hives and top insulation has been known for 50 years, but all too often inflexible beekeepers decline to follow new ideas.

inside a hive- and a second sensor outside the hive

Nest heat is the critical temp., not hive heat. A thermally efficient hive will enable a colony to retain and modulate nest heat with less energy (so bees age more slowly) and do so using less stores.

A thin pine hive with top ventilation is a good example of thermal inefficiency: it obliges bees to work harder (so age faster, consume more stores and produce more waste) in order to compensate for the heat loss imposed on the colony by the beekeeper.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think Ken is in New Hampshire (as if the old one wasn't bad enough) totally different style of beekeeping needed to here.
Either that or New Holland which is so close to the Humber that everything is damp!

 

[ken in NH]

I think Ken is in New Hampshire (as if the old one wasn't bad enough) totally different style of beekeeping needed to here.
Either that or New Holland which is so close to the Humber that everything is damp!

I'm not the only ken around? but - am in new hampshire, USA. right above Boston. Certainly am interested in new methods- still learning. We all are. Have any of you used indoor/outdoor remote sensing thermometers to know the real effect of your method?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm not the only ken around? but - am in new hampshire, USA. right above Boston. Certainly am interested in new methods- still learning. We all are. Have any of you used indoor/outdoor remote sensing thermometers to know the real effect of your method?

Google Derek Mitchell late of this forum
Here’s your starter for ten
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2019.0048?fbclid=

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

might take him a while to dig himself out of that particular rabbit hole.

 

[ericbeaumont]

know the real effect of your method

Yes, Derek Mitchell is the source of documented research into hive thermodynamics. A list of most of Derek's published work is at the end of this link: https://llebka.org.uk/assets/documents/derek-mitchel-profile

 

[Sutty]

Sealed and insulated crownboard and roof will prevent condensation forming on the underside of the crownboard. Such a set-up will also increase hive humidity - which bees prefer - and which to some degree will curtail varroa reproduction.

I can't agree with this entirely, though it will reduce it.
Using a poly hive with a clear acrylic sheet crownboard (top beespace) and a poly roof (and even with extra pir under the poly roof) I still get water droplets on the clear crown board.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I can't agree with this entirely, though it will reduce it.
Using a poly hive with a clear acrylic sheet crownboard (top beespace) and a poly roof (and even with extra pir under the poly roof) I still get water droplets on the clear crown board.

If the sides are insulated too efficiently the warm damp air will have no cool to condensate on so this may be your problem?

 

[Sutty]

If the sides are insulated too efficiently the warm damp air will have no cool to condensate on so this may be your problem?

I still get it even with ultra-thin acrylic crownboards and more insulation on top than the sides have, so I suspect there is condensation on all hive surfaces. I have had very low winter losses though, so it doesn't seem to create too much of a problem to the bees.

 

[ken in NH]

Yes, Derek Mitchell is the source of documented research into hive thermodynamics. A list of most of Derek's published work is at the end of this link: https://llebka.org.uk/assets/documents/derek-mitchel-profile

WOW! what an article! and yes- it will be a while to digest it all. Thank you, tremendously for the link. Am starting to think of fully insulating one hive, and putting in a remote thermometer, and comparing temperatures to an uninsulated one.

 

[ken in NH]

might take him a while to dig himself out of that particular rabbit hole.

true! but what an article!

 

[Penninetrader]

I can't agree with this entirely, though it will reduce it.
Using a poly hive with a clear acrylic sheet crownboard (top beespace) and a poly roof (and even with extra pir under the poly roof) I still get water droplets on the clear crown board.

Thermal differentials, impervious surface, releasd h2o to enable honey consumption. Moisture droplets not really a surprise but the bees may and probably make good use of it. I think each beeks location regarding Temps and relative moisture, strength and traits of each colony, leaves one with a need to accommodate all those parameters.Just do your best