Why is the National Beehive popular in the UK?

[MuswellMetro]

There was a previous thread that discussed why it was "modified". The older Simplex, or Simplicity models which became "National" with Min of Ag sponsorship had double walls at the hand hold ends. "Modified" replaced the double wall with rebated rails, which used less wood. That's how I recall it, I think there was even a double walled box or two that emerged from the back of sheds somewhere.

I don't know when the first hive was sold as a "National" but they were said to have arrived locally in 1938.

i still have a few "unmodified " nationals built of cedar with the double wall and hand holds, the now are not that square but usable , i burnt a lot of similar supers and broods in 1985 becasue they had been creosoted to preserve them but kept those that were untreated or painted

 

[oliver90owner]

Ahh, yes, double walled! They knew something about insulation back then? Forgotten since?

Yes, there is likely a reason and here is a related item, which may interest some. Early vintage cars were originally drained of coolant, if left outside overnight during the winter. It was not long before antifreeze was adopted by most - methanol based ones which evaporated quite quickly, mostly. However as the 1920s passed by, and into the 1930s, the winters becames so mild that it was thought that antifreeze requirement would soon be a thing of the past, at least in southern Britain. How wrong they were!

But maybe this period saw the change from better insulated to lesser insulated and it stuck? Bees survived adequately with only top insulation (quilts), often ofvlayers of old carpet, newspapers, etc.

Just guessing, but thinking back over the last 40 years, the following might be 'thought for food'. The last annual skating races held at Baston Fen in Lincs took place around 40 years ago - the ice has not been thick enough since and not much ice skating has taken place at all, until a couple or three years ago. Last winter, antifreeze in cars was hardly needed at all in large swathes of the UK. Only a couple of decent frosts and no real prolonged drops to sub-zero. OK, the previous couple had several periods of freezing temps (triggering extra heating payments for the elderly, infirm and poorer sections of the community), but they were odd-ball seasons if compared with the last twenty years.

The last time our town was cut off by snow was thirty years ago, and occurred quite regularly before that (local quarry machines used to be sent out to clear the roads in those days). Many would not remember 1963 (I do) and very few 1947 (before me). Apparently high colony losses occurred in 1963 - possibly the cold actually killed the bees, or perhaps the duration caught out a lot of keepers, who knows? There would still have been a lot of double skinned hives in use back then. Just a bit of food for thought.... Maybe these cycles are connected to changes in attitude towards insulation, and single or double-walled hives, just maybe....

 

[rolande]

A discussion of why they chose bottom bee space over the more common top bee space might be pertinent, as that may have been part of it, even.

There's one explanation, in Manley's 'Honey Farming' as to why bottom space was chosen (talking of the older semi-double walled version of the hive of course):

The metal end method of spacing frames is in my opinion one of the most objectionable features of the British equipment. Combs so spaced, since these spacers contact only at the level of the top-bars, can swing when travelling, unless held down tightly on the rabbets which support them. This, in turn, makes it usual for the bee-space between the frames of the different stories to be allowed below the frames, so that the top-bars shall be flush with the hive walls. Then the bottoms of the super walls rest on the ends of the frames and hold them securely in place, but when we wish to lift a super, the lower edges of the super walls are stuck to the top-bars of the brood frames, and the latter are liable to be raised with the super.

 

[Amari]

Ahh, yes, double walled! They knew something about insulation back then? Forgotten since?
The last time our town was cut off by snow was thirty years ago, and occurred quite regularly before that (local quarry machines used to be sent out to clear the roads in those days). Many would not remember 1963 (I do) and very few 1947 (before me). Apparently high colony losses occurred in 1963 - possibly the cold actually killed the bees, or perhaps the duration caught out a lot of keepers, who knows? There would still have been a lot of double skinned hives in use back then. Just a bit of food for thought.... Maybe these cycles are connected to changes in attitude towards insulation, and single or double-walled hives, just maybe....

Yes, I was at uni and my face-flannel froze solid on the wash basin. 1947 - I remember large blocks of ice cut from the road and pushed into the gutters. That winter there was a prolonged miners' strike.........

 

[itma]

There's one explanation {for standardising on bottom bee space}, in Manley's 'Honey Farming' as to why bottom space was chosen (talking of the older semi-double walled version of the hive of course):

… Then the bottoms of the super walls rest on the ends of the frames and hold them securely in place, but when we wish to lift a super, the lower edges of the super walls are stuck to the top-bars of the brood frames, and the latter are liable to be raised with the super.

Manley's boxes clearly had no beespace let into the bottom of the side walls to give clearance above the frame lugs in the box below.
Which is errrrr …. just like the current CWJ/Swienty (and BHS?) poly 'Nationals' … !


/// And from his description above, he wasn't using a QX …

 

[itma]

Here is a bit of beehive/frame history.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/hist.html

Does anyone have any more info about the introduction of the long-lugged standard frame in the last half of the 1800's?
I recall reading somewhere about the specific involvement of Dover (rather than just Kent) in this (but I've completely forgotten where I came across this - doh!)

 

[user 6228]

Ahh, yes, double walled! They knew something about insulation back then? Forgotten since?

Yes, there is likely a reason and here is a related item, which may interest some. Early vintage cars were originally drained of coolant, if left outside overnight during the winter. It was not long before antifreeze was adopted by most - methanol based ones which evaporated quite quickly, mostly. However as the 1920s passed by, and into the 1930s, the winters becames so mild that it was thought that antifreeze requirement would soon be a thing of the past, at least in southern Britain. How wrong they were!

But maybe this period saw the change from better insulated to lesser insulated and it stuck? Bees survived adequately with only top insulation (quilts), often ofvlayers of old carpet, newspapers, etc.

Just guessing, but thinking back over the last 40 years, the following might be 'thought for food'. The last annual skating races held at Baston Fen in Lincs took place around 40 years ago - the ice has not been thick enough since and not much ice skating has taken place at all, until a couple or three years ago. Last winter, antifreeze in cars was hardly needed at all in large swathes of the UK. Only a couple of decent frosts and no real prolonged drops to sub-zero. OK, the previous couple had several periods of freezing temps (triggering extra heating payments for the elderly, infirm and poorer sections of the community), but they were odd-ball seasons if compared with the last twenty years.

The last time our town was cut off by snow was thirty years ago, and occurred quite regularly before that (local quarry machines used to be sent out to clear the roads in those days). Many would not remember 1963 (I do) and very few 1947 (before me). Apparently high colony losses occurred in 1963 - possibly the cold actually killed the bees, or perhaps the duration caught out a lot of keepers, who knows? There would still have been a lot of double skinned hives in use back then. Just a bit of food for thought.... Maybe these cycles are connected to changes in attitude towards insulation, and single or double-walled hives, just maybe....

Severe winters in north Wales in late 70s - had to walk 4 miles to get to lectures, the girl friends car was under deep snow and even the purple motors buses had stopped. - great ice climbing though.


Severe winters in Scotland in early 80s -17C for a couple of weeks. Pipes froze in the road & we had no water! Lake Strathclyde had frozen and was skateable

 

[rolande]

Manley's boxes clearly had no beespace let into the bottom of the side walls to give clearance above the frame lugs in the box below.

He was referring to the bottom bee-space national type boxes of the day. His own BS boxes, some of which we ourselves still have in use, were top bee-space.

 

[mbc]

There's one explanation, in Manley's 'Honey Farming' as to why bottom space was chosen (talking of the older semi-double walled version of the hive of course):

Good find

 

[madasafish]

Severe winters I remember:

1959: Snowdrifts outside house. (NE Scotland)
1963 4 meter snowdrifts outside house. Road to house cut off from main road fro 2 weeks (NE Scotland)

1968 NE Scotland .. drfits
1970s Scotland
early 1980s NW England.

err.. that's it.

(the two winters of 2011-12 were cold but little snow - less than the 1980s..)

 

[itma]

He was referring to the bottom bee-space national type boxes of the day. His own …

My point was that those "bottom bee space" national-standard boxes ("of the day"), which he was referring to, lacked beespace in a specific place that some (but not all) modern "national" designs also lack beespace.

I wasn't really commenting on Manley's preferences, or even whether deliberate propolisation of top bars to box above was a reasonable choice of method to prevent frames swinging … simply that this occurrence was only to be seen on some modern "national" hives - and that we tend to regard the lack of that beespace as being a sub-optimal detail design decision.

// ADDED - and I was noting that to get (as Manley mentioned) propolisation of super box to brood frame, that implies no QX intervening.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

- and I was noting that to get (as Manley mentioned) propolisation of super box to brood frame, that implies no QX intervening.

Page 70 of Manley's book Honey Farming:

"Queen excluders are, in my opinion, an absolute necessity for practical bee farming, and one should be provided for every stock worked for honey. This has been disputed by some beekeepers; but I could not work without these appliances myself, and I cannot imagine how it could be done with any satisfactory method of management"

So yes, he did use QX's he preferred Zinc ones with a wooden bead added (for no other reasons than the wire ones were more expensive and the wooden frames were thicker.)

 

[rolande]

My point was that those "bottom bee space" national-standard boxes ("of the day"), which he was referring to, lacked beespace in a specific place that some (but not all) modern "national" designs also lack beespace.

I posted the quote as one explanation of why bottom bee space was adopted, but can see the point of you're reference to certain modern versions of the hive

// ADDED - and I was noting that to get (as Manley mentioned) propolisation of super box to brood frame, that implies no QX intervening.

Not necessarily, I can't see why the design principle wouldn't have worked with an un-framed zinc excluder as many of the time would have used.

edit: also, as the principle wasn't reliant on propolis -it was the fit of the box (or, I suppose a suitably designed screen that mimicked the double wall construction on two opposing sides) against the frames below, excluders could have been added/removed as required.

 

[Amari]

Severe winters in north Wales in late 70s - had to walk 4 miles to get to lectures, the girl friends car was under deep snow and even the purple motors buses had stopped. - great ice climbing though.
Severe winters in Scotland in early 80s -17C for a couple of weeks. Pipes froze in the road & we had no water! Lake Strathclyde had frozen and was skateable

Were you both entombed for a satisfactory duration?

 

[johnandyrob]

As a kid I didn't play Wars of the Roses, or Knights of the Round Table - but Cowboys and Indians

With a name like yours I would have thought Robin Hood would be your favourite.

 

[REDWOOD]

Sorry I'm to young to remember any of that

 

[Apple]

Four foot eight inches, The Roman chariot bequeathed to all the standard railway gauge, and so follows the National beehive dimension.
As for Langstroth's awkward size, was it not modeled on a beer crate, he had knocking about, or was that Dadant? Then there was the Buckfast hive, I presume modeled on a fortified wine box!

Merry Christmas

James

 

[Amari]

Four foot eight inches, The Roman chariot bequeathed to all the standard railway gauge, and so follows the National beehive dimension.
As for Langstroth's awkward size, was it not modeled on a beer crate, he had knocking about, or was that Dadant? Then there was the Buckfast hive, I presume modeled on a fortified wine box!
Merry Christmas
James

That would squeak and rattle horribly. 4' 8 1/2" now pertains.

 

[Little John]

QUOTE=Little John;453435
As a kid I didn't play Wars of the Roses, or Knights of the Round Table - but Cowboys and Indians

With a name like yours I would have thought Robin Hood would be your favourite.

Could never find any tights of Lincoln green in my size ...
... nor any maidens to play Marion.

We were a bit short on maidens in my neck of the woods - something to do with other kids playing at Doctors and Nurses

 

[Apple]

That would squeak and rattle horribly. 4' 8 1/2" now pertains.

That 12.5 mm is SO important!

and four foot six inches became narrow gauge!
Seems that in this world size does matter!

Four foot eight and one half inches of course!



James