Why is the National Beehive popular in the UK?

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thebeeman

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Location
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Langstroth
Having had a few days off it got me thinking why the National beehive is so popular in the UK?
When Langstroth hives are bigger you get a lot more room in them more bees = more honey, Less swarming due to bees running out of space so quickly.

75% or the worlds beekeepers use Langstroth are they wrong and were right

Or does it go back to when most beekeepers were in there late 90s and they could only lift a small national super?

Or is it cost smaller boards to make smaller hives = bigger profits for suppliers?

I know its not our climate that makes them better to use

So what are your thoughts?
 
I know its not our climate that makes them better to use

So what are your thoughts?

I think a tall, narrowish box suits our conditions well.
I've tried langies and nationals, dadant and commercials, I've stuck with the national as being the best all rounder but if I started again I think I'd probably go with Smith.
 
If I was to start over again, I would definitely go the Langstroth route as they seem a far better sized box for todays bees. I think the national became popular a very long time ago when keeping smaller colonies was much more prevalent and practical. Changing 30+ hives and 15 Nucs over now would cost far too much. Might consider it for the future as and when my current stock need replacing.
S
 
It's an interesting question.

The National size frame was around long before the hive was designed. There's actually a lot of advantage in standardising the frame. Many have made their own boxes and expected them to last 10, 20 or more years. In that time they will be fitted with several sets of frames and home made frames are seen much less often.

The Langstroth seems to have become established across the US without other formats getting a look in. That might be connected with the way the US always had more migratory beekeeping and bee farmers on a larger scale than ever appeared in Europe. The economics of standardisation and mass production were felt for hives in the US before they were over here. The same argument probably applies to Australia and New Zealand where the average size of the beekeeping enterprise was larger than here.

If you look through the late 19th, early 20th century British magazines there were many varieties of hives being made and advertised. Some recollections written a few years back said the most popular hives between the wars around here were WBC, but firms in the area were making varieties of "Simplex", "Cottager" and their own designs. If anybody did want a larger frame size, there was always the Commercial format available from the 1920s. Practically most of the others took the long lug National frame as far as I can find details. There was an effort by the Ministry of Agriculture before the second world war to promote standardisation. That's essentially where the National hive came from, the first ones arriving her in the late 30s. They were heavily encouraged officially during a massive expansion of beekeeping during the war.

Beekeeping remained popular after the war until sugar rationing ended in the 1950s. By then there were lots of national size boxes available, so for a shrinking beekeeper population who could use the existing boxes there was no point in changing formats. It's easier using the type everyone around is using than being the only one with a novel format. Don't be misled by the size argument, the written National standard has always allowed for more than one box for the brood. Whether that's deep plus shallow or two deeps the multi box format is adaptable.

The question leads to why did Langstroth sizes become popular in Europe? My guess is that, while many areas had their local formats, there was no organised standardisation effort as for the National in the UK. The result by the 1950s/60s was that Langstroth became a popular cross border format that would allow parts to be sourced from various suppliers. The local formats are still going in wood, but the extra investment in moulds that making poly hives needs tends to mean that Langstroth has dominated that market as the first format to tool up for.
 
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Also similar to pounds and miles they work well for tens of thousands of beekeepers perfectly adequately.
 
Having had a few days off it got me thinking why the National beehive is so popular in the UK?

Because it became a British Standard (BS1300), and thus had a governmental seal of approval.

Same reason people used British Standard Whitworth (BSW) nuts and bolts for donkey's years. Dozens of similar examples.

LJ


I think two reasons the Langstroth may have become popular: one is enthusiastic marketing; the other a love affair with all things American - like Levi Jeans, Coca-Cola and McDonalds.
As a kid I didn't play Wars of the Roses, or Knights of the Round Table - but Cowboys and Indians ...
 
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Having had a few days off it got me thinking why the National beehive is so popular in the UK?
When Langstroth hives are bigger you get a lot more room in them more bees = more honey, Less swarming due to bees running out of space so quickly.
75% or the worlds beekeepers use Langstroth are they wrong and were right
Or does it go back to when most beekeepers were in there late 90s and they could only lift a small national super?
Or is it cost smaller boards to make smaller hives = bigger profits for suppliers?
I know its not our climate that makes them better to use
So what are your thoughts?

That's me - in 20 years' time. Mind you, even when I was an Adonis 40 years ago it was difficult to lift a Langstroth bb full of stores. I had lumbago then but not since swapping to Nats.
 
Because it became a British Standard (BS1300), and thus had a governmental seal of approval..
so its a case of not what's better or worse but a case of that's what were told to use so use it.
 
so its a case of not what's better or worse but a case of that's what were told to use so use it.

I don't think anyone was told they had to use it, use whatever size you like if you manufacture all your own equipment, but having a set standard made things a lot easier.

Dadants are big, how much more honey will a Dadant hive produce compared to a national?
 
I don't think anyone was told they had to use it, use whatever size you like if you manufacture all your own equipment, but having a set standard made things a lot easier.

And that set standard was reached at as it was a happy medium of what was working for people already.
 
And that set standard was reached at as it was a happy medium of what was working for people already.

And still works very well today, well i find they do anyway.
 
Hivemaker your a woody person
Could a lot be down to the width of timbers for Langstroth compared to nationals and the price and supply of the timber if you know what i mean
 
And still works very well today, well i find they do anyway.

Me too, I think far too much time is spent agonising over which box, and too little time spent deciding what not to do to our bees.
 
So we have the National hive due to

Quote from Dave Cushman site

Modified National Hive' that we know today. It was proposed in 1944, (due to shortages of certain timber sizes)
 
The simple box jointed construction of the Langstroth is good where bears are a perennial pest of the beekeeper - recovered parts are rebuildable!

The National was a compromise around the frames of the day and suited the bees of the c time.

The 14 x 12 should have been more suited to nest shape than the commercial, but I suspect that short lugs in the same sized box (with a bit extra in height) had been chosen by the commercial beekeepers who could change formats at leisure (from hobby to bee farmer) with boxes of cheaper construction (a la langstroth).

The National is certainly a robust construction, but overly complex for cheapness of manufacture.

A discussion of why they chose bottom bee space over the more common top bee space might be pertinent, as that may have been part of it, even.

Why so popular in the UK? Current frames sizes (1920s) standardised, popularity of WBC to keep it going and conservative UK beekeepers - plus the UK suppliers did not need to compete against any imports while they had a niche market. Above all, the National deep was adequate, so why change to a larger format (more honey left in the box, more feed to get them through the winter, etc etc). On top of that, hives lasted donkeys years, compared to the Langstroth because western red cedar was used. So it goes on.....more and more reasons not to change ....
 
so its a case of not what's better or worse but a case of that's what were told to use so use it.
If you think back to the early days of the Industrial Revolution, when every man and his dog were cutting their own screw threads, and making spanners which wouldn't fit anyone-else's nuts and bolts - there was clearly a need to impose some sort of order on that chaos - so the British Standards Institute (formerly the Engineering Standards Committee) was formed, and something of a mania then developed for standardising a whole host of things. That didn't stop custom stuff being made, it just ensured that the majority of basic components were inter-changeable. That makes sense to me.

So - if you were a guy making parts for beehives, you could be assured that there would be a market for your products - likewise, a customer could be confident that anything purchased to that British Standard would fit their existing kit. I don't really think 'better or worse' comes into it at all. If the Internet hadn't been invented, we'd be happily using Nationals, Smiths or WBC's and thinking nothing more about it. :)

Personally, I don't really have a problem with the National design - I do curse the long frame lugs when making boxes, but actually quite like them when doing inspections.

I think thicker box sides would be an improvement - but otherwise, they do the job ok. Better than my Long Hives for manipulations like queen-rearing, that's for sure.

LJ
 
They've probably persisted because they work well - and I couldn't now handle a bigger i.e. heavier brood box than the National.

If I was starting again I'd make all my boxes for 'top' bee space.
 
So we have the National hive due to

Quote from Dave Cushman site

Modified National Hive' that we know today. It was proposed in 1944, (due to shortages of certain timber sizes)
There was a previous thread that discussed why it was "modified". The older Simplex, or Simplicity models which became "National" with Min of Ag sponsorship had double walls at the hand hold ends. "Modified" replaced the double wall with rebated rails, which used less wood. That's how I recall it, I think there was even a double walled box or two that emerged from the back of sheds somewhere.

I don't know when the first hive was sold as a "National" but they were said to have arrived locally in 1938.
 

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