Which to plant - sycamore or horse chestnut

[ratcatcher]

Oak is much better for the ecology of Ireland.

What about hawthorn? - great early flows on that - quicker growing, really hardy and you could use as hedgerows to replace the barbed wire usually seen all over the place

sounds great, I have just over 7 acres of oak, hawthorn and hazel, and loads of bramble,lol

 

[Tremyfro]

Sycamore is not only a weed but is an import. The single most nasty aspect of the sycamore is that when animals eat the seed pods...which get dispersed over a wide area....they cause a condition called Typical Myopathy. The muscles go into spasm and literally suffocate the animal. The heart is finally affected and the animal dies. It is heart rending to watch...the animal can hardly walk....it's muscles are steely hard to touch...the spasm is so great...by the time it is discovered on the ground....it is too late. This sweeps the country in the spring and autumn. First identified on the continent but vets now recognise more readily so we have more idea of the numbers and gravity of the situation. It has been identified as the cause in America as they have invested in the research. In every field where an animal died...there was the lovely sycamore. It has taken a long time to identify the cause of Typical Myopathy and many horses have died.....family pets and valuable competition horses alike. Sometimes 15 or more die in one field.....and sometimes just one in a group. It just depends on which one eats the sycamore pods.....how much grazing is in the field etc. how do I know this? One of our horses suffered.....we were really lucky as we saw something was wrong very early and he was whisked into intensive care at the vets....on a drip for 3 days to flush out the poisons and loads of other drugs. Cost a huge amount of money....fortunately insured....or death was the other option. As you have seen someone else posted that dogs can be affected too. Please don't plant sycamores. Ireland is so lovely plant hedges for the wild life....all can benefit.

 

[Dishmop]

We have mature sycamore and horse chestnut outside the house, both are over 80 years old and I've never seen a bee on either.

The only time I see bees on the plants in my garden is when they are after water.

 

[Headnavigator]

The horse chestnut in my garden is certainly attractive to bees, I see its pollen going in and (thank goodness) the tree also attracts the odd swarm I might inadvertently allow. Does it taint the honey? Not that I'd noticed. As far as I'm aware they ignore the sycamore that's around the place.

 

[Hivemaker.]

As you have seen someone else posted that dogs can be affected too. Please don't plant sycamores.

There have also been some problems in England with dogs becoming ill after being walked among Horse Chestnut possibly due to wolfing down the fruits on the ground.

This post?

Horse chestnut trees are also an import, a much later one than the Sycamore.

 

[Tremyfro]

Mis read the horse chestnut bit. We now live on land where there are not any sycamores. If any seed them selves here....they will soon be destroyed. Once you see what happens .....you don't want to go there again. There are so many lovely trees to choose from.....bee friendly ones too.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sycamore is not only a weed but is an import. The single most nasty aspect of the sycamore is that when animals eat the seed pods...which get dispersed over a wide area....they cause a condition called Typical Myopathy.

It's not as simple as that.
Atypical Myopathy has been described in horses feeding on poor pasture and not given supplementary feed where they are more likely to ingest leaves.....as well as seed pods.
You can't singularly blame a tree species where decent husbandry would prevent disease. It's like saying to a horse owner that eating grass causes Laminitis.

 

[pargyle]

In my area the Horse chestnuts come into blossom much earlier than the sycamores ... quite a long time before there is any significant forage ... it's so early in the season that I think it was a very significant source of forage for my bees ... I hate the damn things as they are the worst for my hay fever but I think the bees were all over them. Being so early in the season I suspect that any honey that came from them would be long gone by honey harvest time. By the time the sycamores were out there was plenty of other stuff around in my area so I suspect the huge sycamore in next door's garden was of little benefit.

But ... from the point of view of bee trees I think the 20 or 30 years for either Horse chestnut or Sycamores to reach maturity I'd be with JBM and plant Hawthorn, Sloes (very early blossom and quick growing - often bloom before the hawthorn) and either wild plums or Damsons. All great for the bees and you get the benefit of the fruit from all of them .... (Try hawthorn and crab apple jelly !).

 

[simonwig]

It would be interesting if the OP could explain why these are the only options. Curious as to why these two species.

Simon

 

[Hivemaker.]

Lots of sycamore trees in the woodlands and hedges around here, they certainly help fill the supers in spring, the trees are humming with bees and other insects until late in the evenings, flowers at quite a young age and lives for hundreds of years...and the timber is useful.

http://www.rfs.org.uk/learning/sycamore

 

[Tremyfro]

Atypical Myopathy may have been described as horses feeding on poor pasture....but that is not necessarily true. There is a lot of 'old' information about AM. Our vet examined the pasture and could find nothing to indicate the AM. He said that there had been reports of horses on pasture ...low lying and near water, piles of dead leaves in the pasture , excessive dropping on the pasture. It was clear that there was no definitive answer. It was thought that anaerobic bacteria were at fault, also, that it was closely related to the clostridium ....all of which are found in soil in abundance. There was a break through in the research and it was found that the sycamore was common to all cases. Our paddock, at the time had many sycamores, full grown trees and many in the hedges which were stunted but vigorous. The sycamore is a lovely tree but not anywhere near where animals graze. Interestingly, we hear little from farmers in regard to cows and sheep. Perhaps the ruminant stomach protects them or perhaps so many are killed for meat in the early autumn and spring that they don't get the exposure. Perhaps the permanent pasture offers a sycamore uninterrupted growth. If you had a choice...why would you plant it for bees when there are so many others to choose from.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

In my area the Horse chestnuts come into blossom much earlier than the sycamores ... quite a long time before there is any significant forage ... it's so early in the season that I think it was a very significant source of forage for my bees ... I hate the damn things as they are the worst for my hay fever but I think the bees were all over them. Being so early in the season I suspect that any honey that came from them would be long gone by honey harvest time. By the time the sycamores were out there was plenty of other stuff around in my area so I suspect the huge sycamore in next door's garden was of little benefit.

But ... from the point of view of bee trees I think the 20 or 30 years for either Horse chestnut or Sycamores to reach maturity I'd be with JBM and plant Hawthorn, Sloes (very early blossom and quick growing - often bloom before the hawthorn) and either wild plums or Damsons. All great for the bees and you get the benefit of the fruit from all of them .... (Try hawthorn and crab apple jelly !).

Sloes are the fruit of BLACKTHORN not Hawthorn. You could plant Damsons for similar effect without the vicious thorns

 

[Teemore]

I have read that in parts of Scotland there is a big yield from Sycamore. My experience of Sycamore this year relates to a particular mature specimen a short distance from my home apiary. For a bit over three weeks the bees (bumble and honey) along with loads of other pollinating insects were working it from dawn till dusk. There was constant traffic from my hives to this one tree...The bees were flying to other locations too.

A mix of trees will probably be to your advantage and if you can add some Hazel, Alder, Blackthorne and Whitethorne to the mix, it will give pollinating insects a greater spread of forage. Quick growing varieties could give you a supply if coppiced firewood too. Think about your under planting as well as it will yield forage long before the trees.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have read that in parts of Scotland there is a big yield from Sycamore. My experience of Sycamore this year relates to a particular mature specimen a short distance from my home apiary. For a bit over three weeks the bees (bumble and honey) along with loads of other pollinating insects were working it from dawn till dusk. There was constant traffic from my hives to this one tree...The bees were flying to other locations too.

A mix of trees will probably be to your advantage and if you can add some Hazel, Alder, Blackthorne and Whitethorne to the mix, it will give pollinating insects a greater spread of forage. Quick growing varieties could give you a supply if coppiced firewood too. Think about your under planting as well as it will yield forage long before the trees.

Plant willow too - easily propagated, grows quickly and great for early spring build up, and as it needs regular coppicing - plenty of biomass fuel

 

[Fatbee]

Sycamore was invaluable to me last year because the wet summer of 2012 led to all the OSR round me failing to establish. This year nothing much from sycamore because coincided with the OSR flow which they go mad for. It's the problem that so many spring flowering clash with OSR although I like the honey.
Do you get much OSR grown in Ireland?

 

[pargyle]

Sloes are the fruit of BLACKTHORN not Hawthorn. You could plant Damsons for similar effect without the vicious thorns

Ahhh ... You'd best go to specsavers them ...hawthorn COMMA sloes ... I make hawthorn jelly and sloe gin !!

 

[Teemore]

Do you get much OSR grown in Ireland?

I see a fair bit of it on my travels and certainly in the North there is an increasing trend to grow it as a break crop. This year, for the first time, I have spotted fields of Spring OSR. None are anyway close to me or my apiaries though!

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Ahhh ... You'd best go to specsavers them ...hawthorn COMMA sloes ... I make hawthorn jelly and sloe gin !!

Sorry misinterpreted your hawthorn jelly. What's your recipe?

 

[sainfoin]

I have to look hard to see the bees in the sycamores as they seem to head for the tops but the whole tree is one big buzz. OH says he can see them with no trouble. Personally however hard I search have never seen a bee on the hawthorns and we have lots.

 

[Teemore]

Took photographs of honeybees foraging on Hawthorne/Whitethorne earlier this year. Tried to get some shots of them working Sycamore but they were a little too indistinct in the pictures. The noise they were making was however very clear!