Which hive type?

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Zante

Field Bee
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
683
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0
Location
Near Florence, Italy
Hive Type
Dadant
Number of Hives
2
Knowing what you know now, if you were to start over, what hive type would you choose for yourself? Why?
Don't consider the prevalent hive type in your area, or other external factors, I'd like to hear what is your opinion of the hive types themselves.

Just a bit of a chat, so please let's keep it light eh? ;)
 
National, 14 X 12 - but top bee space. In cedar.

I like the size of brood box, as it gives sufficient space for both a hive in full flow, and for enough stores for winter. The standard National is too small.

But, all other things apart, I'd prefer top bee space, as i think it's easier to work.

I intend to put more emphasis on winter insulation to match the insulation advantages of poly hives.

Dusty
 
National, 14 X 12 - but top bee space. In cedar.

I like the size of brood box, as it gives sufficient space for both a hive in full flow, and for enough stores for winter. The standard National is too small.

But, all other things apart, I'd prefer top bee space, as i think it's easier to work.

I intend to put more emphasis on winter insulation to match the insulation advantages of poly hives.

Dusty

+1 - But in Poly ...
 
I use national poly but if i could start again i would go for 14 x 12 national poly without a doubt!

Now if only they made a poly eke to convert the poly national to a 14 x 12!
 
I use national poly but if i could start again i would go for 14 x 12 national poly without a doubt!

Now if only they made a poly eke to convert the poly national to a 14 x 12!

They do ... but they call it a super !

A few bamboo skewers, some gripfast and Bob's yer uncle.
 
Is that right?

A super on top of a brood box is the same as a 14 x 12?

Be great if its that simple!
 
Is that right?

A super on top of a brood box is the same as a 14 x 12?

Be great if its that simple!

Pretty much ...

Std National

Shallow. 5.5ins (140mm) for supers and known as "shallow frames".

Brood. 8.5 ins (215mm) for standard depth brood boxes and known as "brood frames". These are sometimes erroneously referred to as "deeps".

Add them together 5.5 + 8.5 = 14
 
Knowing what you know now, if you were to start over, what hive type would you choose for yourself? Why?

I use poly Jumbo Langstroths and would probably do exactly the same if I started again, and would still end up wondering if I should downsize slightly to standard Langstroth - also poly - but end up not bothering.

My bees are local bees, they mostly fill the brood box during the warmer months. They can store more than enough for winter in the brood box. The hives are warm and weatherproof and easy to use and I actually prefer the shorter frame lugs.
 
A lot depends on where you are beekeeping and what strain of bees you intend to keep in the hive. You can spend a lot of time studying which hive and which bee is best for a given set of conditions. The bees don't care, they will happily make a home in just about any cavity from 20 liters to 300 liters in size. It is up to the beekeeper to determine what is best for management purposes. There are 4 hive designs that bear looking at.

The Perone hive is a fixed comb hive that is excellent for low input conditions. It is primarily used in 3rd world agriculture.

Top bar hives such as Kenya or Tanzania top bar are very low cost to build but have relatively high profit potential. They are increasingly used by backyard beekeepers for their low input characteristics.

Horizontal hives are excellent for tropical agriculture. Layens and Jackson Horizontal Hive are two examples worth looking at. JHH in particular has been adapted and has significant advantages over most other hive designs.

The Rose hive would be a major contender. It has significant advantages over most other vertical stackable hive designs. I would not use Rose hives because I can see their inherent design flaws. Each box contains 12 frames with nominal comb space of 105 square inches per comb and requires 24 frames (in 2 boxes) for nominal wintering hive configuration. He got a huge amount of the design right, especially as compared with Langstroth hives. He missed that a single large brood chamber is more cost efficient and more efficient for queen laying than using multiple boxes. He also missed that there are a minimum of 24 frames to inspect to find a queen or otherwise go through a colony. By comparison, I am using square deep Dadant hives with 14 frames which gives nominal capacity almost identical to 2 Rose boxes but is more efficient for queen laying because there are fewer corners in the frames and there are only 14 frames to inspect for the queen. It is very important to me that the brood nest be easy to inspect as I intend to produce queens! If not for the desire to produce queens, I could easily have chosen the Rose hive design.

Square Modified Dadant was Brother Adam's choice and with a lot of good reasons. I am in the process of converting all my hives to these and already can tell how much better they are than Langstroths. I will post the reasons for using these below. One of my primary reasons is so I can run a 2 queen colony in a single box.

Keep in mind that an extractor will be needed to handle whatever size frame is chosen. Also note that I am building all of my own frames because I prefer 1.25 inch end bars. This allows me to put 14 frames in a single Square Deep box. I do not advise using 1.25 inch end bars unless you are prepared to deal with the differences in bee behavior.

1. There are max 14 frames to examine to find a queen, inspect, etc.
2. All of the brood a prolific queen can produce will fit in one brood box
3. It has enough room for wintering in one box, a Langstroth is not quite enough
4. It is designed to run a horizontal 2 queen system using a divider
5. It reduces crowding effects so the bees are less likely to swarm
6. The wide entrance improves ventilation
7. The brood nest is more consolidated instead of being spread across multiple boxes of combs
8. My extractor was made to handle this size comb, the frames will fit my existing system if I need to extract
9. Easy to use to produce queens, just put a divider in place like a cloake board and have at it
10. It allows me to re-use the shallow extracting frames I already have, just add square supers.
11. It is highly efficient for space utilization
12. It costs less for a complete working hive than most other movable frame stackable super designs
13. It is much less likely to blow over in a strong wind
14. Square modified Dadant hives can easily be palletized
15. Can turn the supers 90 degrees so the bees fill them evenly and mature the honey all at one time.
16. Provides clustering space at night and in rainy weather
17. Diverts foragers from the broodnest directly into the supers
18. Can easily adjust the number of brood frames to fit the queen's ability to fill them with brood

and here are the detriments
1. A box full of honey will weigh a bit over 100 pounds, not good for the back
2. These are obviously not standard in the U.S. which is a detriment if I ever sell out
3. Equipment is not normally available in the U.S., I have to custom build the frames and other hive components
4. Splitting has to be done by moving frames instead of separating boxes.
 
Brood. 8.5 ins (215mm) for standard depth brood boxes and known as "brood frames". These are sometimes erroneously referred to as "deeps".

Thornes catalogue says"
DN stands for Deep National and will fit standard size National and WBC brood bodies. SN stands for Shallow National and will fit standard National and WBC supers.
 
A lot depends on where you are beekeeping and what strain of bees you intend to keep in the hive. You can spend a lot of time studying which hive and which bee is best for a given set of conditions. The bees don't care, they will happily make a home in just about any cavity from 20 liters to 300 liters in size. It is up to the beekeeper to determine what is best for management purposes. There are 4 hive designs that bear looking at.

The Perone hive is a fixed comb hive that is excellent for low input conditions. It is primarily used in 3rd world agriculture.

Top bar hives such as Kenya or Tanzania top bar are very low cost to build but have relatively high profit potential. They are increasingly used by backyard beekeepers for their low input characteristics.

Horizontal hives are excellent for tropical agriculture. Layens and Jackson Horizontal Hive are two examples worth looking at. JHH in particular has been adapted and has significant advantages over most other hive designs.

The Rose hive would be a major contender. It has significant advantages over most other vertical stackable hive designs. I would not use Rose hives because I can see their inherent design flaws. Each box contains 12 frames with nominal comb space of 105 square inches per comb and requires 24 frames (in 2 boxes) for nominal wintering hive configuration. He got a huge amount of the design right, especially as compared with Langstroth hives. He missed that a single large brood chamber is more cost efficient and more efficient for queen laying than using multiple boxes. He also missed that there are a minimum of 24 frames to inspect to find a queen or otherwise go through a colony. By comparison, I am using square deep Dadant hives with 14 frames which gives nominal capacity almost identical to 2 Rose boxes but is more efficient for queen laying because there are fewer corners in the frames and there are only 14 frames to inspect for the queen. It is very important to me that the brood nest be easy to inspect as I intend to produce queens! If not for the desire to produce queens, I could easily have chosen the Rose hive design.

Square Modified Dadant was Brother Adam's choice and with a lot of good reasons. I am in the process of converting all my hives to these and already can tell how much better they are than Langstroths. I will post the reasons for using these below. One of my primary reasons is so I can run a 2 queen colony in a single box.

Keep in mind that an extractor will be needed to handle whatever size frame is chosen. Also note that I am building all of my own frames because I prefer 1.25 inch end bars. This allows me to put 14 frames in a single Square Deep box. I do not advise using 1.25 inch end bars unless you are prepared to deal with the differences in bee behavior.

1. There are max 14 frames to examine to find a queen, inspect, etc.
2. All of the brood a prolific queen can produce will fit in one brood box
3. It has enough room for wintering in one box, a Langstroth is not quite enough
4. It is designed to run a horizontal 2 queen system using a divider
5. It reduces crowding effects so the bees are less likely to swarm
6. The wide entrance improves ventilation
7. The brood nest is more consolidated instead of being spread across multiple boxes of combs
8. My extractor was made to handle this size comb, the frames will fit my existing system if I need to extract
9. Easy to use to produce queens, just put a divider in place like a cloake board and have at it
10. It allows me to re-use the shallow extracting frames I already have, just add square supers.
11. It is highly efficient for space utilization
12. It costs less for a complete working hive than most other movable frame stackable super designs
13. It is much less likely to blow over in a strong wind
14. Square modified Dadant hives can easily be palletized
15. Can turn the supers 90 degrees so the bees fill them evenly and mature the honey all at one time.
16. Provides clustering space at night and in rainy weather
17. Diverts foragers from the broodnest directly into the supers
18. Can easily adjust the number of brood frames to fit the queen's ability to fill them with brood

and here are the detriments
1. A box full of honey will weigh a bit over 100 pounds, not good for the back
2. These are obviously not standard in the U.S. which is a detriment if I ever sell out
3. Equipment is not normally available in the U.S., I have to custom build the frames and other hive components
4. Splitting has to be done by moving frames instead of separating boxes.

Yep, you totally got the "no external factors", "choose for yourself", "just a chat" and "keep it light" parts :D
 
nicely thought out F P .... every one to their own I suppose, and the different situations that encompass beeks, seems to call for, .. as well you can see by the body types.

common hive here in NZ is the FD lang .... o/d 509 x 409 x 248 I have got some plastic foundation to make what they call a Jumbo ... which is (300 deep ) & which I must try this coming season, I like the idea of dead sq bodies many commercials here use FD for supers as well, too heavy for me when full ( the only advantage here is being able to swap frames from super to brood' I myself use 3/4 boxes for supers 509 x 409 x 185 .... i'm thinking that the FD box could be bigger, some beeks use 2 x 3/4 boxes combined .... always means you have 2 x brood boxes to go through
What size box is your preference ?
 
I won't have much of a choice: in Italy there is only Dadant, and if you look really hard you might be able to get langstroth
 
If I were starting over...I would definitely have long hives. Very little lifting and everything at waist height. Thank you for the suggestion of converting my BS nationals to jumbo hives. I knew that the 12x14 frames fitted that brood plus super combination but hadn't thought of setting it up as a brood box. ATM I use ekes on my nucs but for hiving up it would be great use of my nationals as I only have one jumbo poly.
 
I started with WBC and National, both bottom bee space.

I changed to 14 x 12 and top bee space after a couple of seasons. My 14 x 12 boxes are mostly deeps plus an eke, so could easily be changed to bottom bee space or revert to deeps. Don't think I will change back unless disposing of them to someone who wants something different to what I have now.

Top bee space works for me. The only downside is that the first removed box needs to be stood on runners of some kind (usually the upturned roof) as the frames are level with the box bottom edges.

I chose National over Langstroth because of the square boxes, so choice of working from side or rear (as well as being the common local format) even though I knew (from the outset) that one deep was often not big enough.

Another reason to go 14 x 12 was that of adopting OMFs - the bees can get further away from the frame bottoms in winter). My Dartingtons are the better bet for housing in a permanent position, for some aspects. Nearly everything to do with beekeeping kit is a compromise
 

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