When to add a 14x12 brood box

[bushman1872]

I am looking at swopping to 14x12 brood body for both hives. Was wondering when the best time to start this process would be bearing in mind that winter sown rape is starting to rear its head and will be in full flower by early may.

 

[Rosti]

I switched last season. I used a combination of moving up and demaree to keep continuity and bee numbers up. I placed the 14x12 on top of the std BB (QE above 14x12 but no supers) in second week april (gave a litre or so of 1:1 at the same time). By end April there were about 5 drawn frames and she was laying (2009 queen). Demaree'd 1st week May, removed 4th week May .... 9 of 11 14x12's drawn .... no swarm activity .... and then gave back the BB 1st week July because they were a monster colony and they still have it! The other hive just went to 14x12 following the same process and timescale but did not draw frames as quickly and did not get their original BB back later - no need. R

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

I switched last season. I used a combination of moving up and demaree to keep continuity and bee numbers up. I placed the 14x12 on top of the std BB (QE above 14x12 but no supers) in second week april (gave a litre or so of 1:1 at the same time). By end April there were about 5 drawn frames and she was laying (2009 queen). Demaree'd 1st week May, removed 4th week May .... 9 of 11 14x12's drawn .... no swarm activity .... and then gave back the BB 1st week July because they were a monster colony and they still have it! The other hive just went to 14x12 following the same process and timescale but did not draw frames as quickly and did not get their original BB back later - no need. R

Hi Rosti

When you say you Demaree'd, was that just moving the original DN on top of the 14x12 + QE, or was there another 14x12 involved?

 

[Rosti]

Hi Rosti

When you say you Demaree'd, was that just moving the original DN on top of the 14x12 + QE, or was there another 14x12 involved?

I've just cut and pasted my previous post so be aware that you can find alternative approaches in various threads on the bkf

================ original posting ================

As per Roof Tops request, abridged version of 'Demaree a la Rosti'

Have only done this 3 times in 2 years so hardly exhaustive evaluation. Once because I wanted to move from Std BB to 14x12 (so I took the chance to practice rather than just let them move up) and twice as a result of seeing QC's populated with larvae, never done it proactively anticipating active QCs (no crystal ball). All colonies were strong at the time.

DAY 0
Set up second brood box with as many drawn frames poss and plain foundation for the rest - 11 total (have unavoidably done it with all foundation on one occassion - it still worked)
Place stocked BB 'B' next to hive ideally on a spare floor or on the removed roof
Remove centre frame
Work though BB 'A' find frame with Q on it and transfer to BB 'B'
Once over the BB 'B' inspect for QC's and remove all
Cover with a manipulation cloth
Remove BB 'A' from it's location and replace with BB 'B'
QE then any supers that were already there, an extra one if the last is already being worked.
AN EXTRA SUPER BUT WITH NO FRAMES IN
QE
Now place BB 'A' on top QE
Inspect and remove any QC's (unless you are going to breed a new queen)
Shove the frames together and place the removed frame from BB 'B' at one end.
Crown, Space board foam insulation block above, then roof
DAY 7
If not wanting a new queen inspect BB 'A' and remove any QC's
I guess you get to choose at this point if breeding - but I have always done this when QCs present in first place so you would have your chosen QC anyway.
Do not inspect BB 'B'
DAY 14 & 21
Inspect BB 'A' for remaining brood
Inspect BB 'B' for progress
@ D21 decide when to remove BB 'A'
Can run BB 'A' as a second hive and allow chosen QC to develop, use a second 'entrance' to allow mating, then replace original queen or what ever (I have not done this yet though). Some books have said to have a second entrance to let drones out but I have just relied on my weekly inspection to let them out.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Thanks - so just to confirm, and sorry if I'm being thick as per, but in the manoever you mentioned previously, after "Day 0" your particular stack looked like

Crown Board/Roof
BB 'A' Older 14x12 - nurse bees and brood
BB 'A' Original DN?*
QE
Empty Super
QE
BB'B' - New 14x12 - HM & flying bees
Floor​

*I think I was unsure if the original DN was also moved as part of the Demaree, or if this was the stage it got abandoned at

 

[Rosti]

..... and you have just pointed out why I will never get a job as a teacher!

There are two ways I use demaree a) as swarm control; b) to clear an 'extra' BB that I dont want in that hive anymore.

If you are doing this as swarm control (a) at the end of day zero you end up with the following stack. The only difference if you are doing this to clear down a BB you want to remove later (21 days later) is that both the 'top' and the 'bottom' BB will have brood and stores (b) - you would already have had the new BB above the old BB for a period and allowed the queen tonaturally move up along with associated comb drawing etc before you did this.

Stack (for swarm control):-

roof
crown
Old BB (minus the frame the queen was found on)
QE (stops any hatching queen cell getting down and potentially laying in the supers)*
Empty super
Any other current supers (but no more than 2 practically)
QE
New BB(fresh foundation plus the frame the queen was found on)
Floor

*if you want to hatch and breed a new quaeen as well you need a top entrance above the QE as well

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Yes, I do follow that - your teaching was clear enough - but (and why I was always considered a poor student I suspect) I was talking about the OP in which you were not using the demaree for swarm control, but you suggested as the tail end of a swap from DN to 14x12.

But my brain is now close to overheating so I'll let it lie, may take it up as a PM after a refreshing beer

 

[bushman1872]

thanks for the replies