What to do with a swarmy colony

[TomH]

Hi all,

After a little advice please on the best way to requeen or proceed with a rather swarmy colony I acquired this year, and anything I should have done differently. I'm only in my second year of beekeeping so be gentle.

History is as follows:

19th April - Colony collected as a large swarm, a few miles from home. Hived in a rose hive.
27th April - around 8 - 10 frames drawn out.
13th May - second box added
31st May - Bees beginning to fill top box and drawn out frames
8th June - Swarmed. One open/emerged queen cell in bottom box and 4 capped which I tore down. As there was space in the upper box, I never checked below for queen cells, but lesson learnt.
18th June - Another 11 queen cells taken down. No eggs or larvae, so assumed virgin queen still to be mated/start laying. Around 6 full frames in the top box.
25th June - Hive swarmed again.
26th June - On inspection found two open queen cells but no more charged cells. One open on the bottom of the frame and one open on the face (picture below). Some capped brood, but no eggs or larvae seen.




I'm thinking I must have missed two of the cells on my previous inspection, giving them further chance to issue a cast swarm? Was I also too slow in giving them more space earlier on?

I would like to try and requeen them if possible. My other colonies have made a few play cups, but no queen cells, so i'm bit at a loss as to why this colony is so intent on swarming and i'm more just landlord than beekeeper!

Given that they have recently swarmed and there were two open queen cells, there must be a virgin running around in there now. I do have another small colony on approx. 4 frames with a mated queen that I was planning on uniting with this swarmy, but stronger colony. Presumably uniting at this stage would result in them fighting it out, with no say in whether the mated queen or the swarmy virgin prevails.

Should I go ahead and unite now? Or is it more sensible to wait until the swarmy hive has a laying queen, find a squash her, then unite? Or any other course of action? I was thinking I might inspect at 5 day intervals, seeing as I have already missed some queen cells.

Thoughts and criticisms welcome.

Thanks

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you want to replace the queen the colony has already you need to find her first. No other way short of shaking them out.

 

[drex]

You are obviously missing queen cells. In my early days I wanted to see everything that was going on during an inspection. At this time of year, all I really need to check for are eggs and queen cells, so that is my focus now. Shake the bees off the frames, they are good at hiding cells, as you are finding out

 

[TomH]

Thank you both. Will hold fire and see how they develop with the new queen.

Yes my inspection technique was lacking. Have started shaking them off more now so I can get a clear look and am finding them now.

Do you think they sound 'swarmy', or just my fault for not looking well in the first place? I thought it was relatively unusual for a colony to issue a maiden swarm?

 

[drex]

Some bees will have more of a tendency to swarm than others. Bees will be bees. As your inspection technique improves it will become less of a problem. As you gain in experience you will be able to select for less swarmy.
It is their method of reproduction so all will do it at some time

 

[user 819]

With my calm bees initially I don't shake them off , I simply gently lay the flat end of my hive tool on the bees to thin them out and slowly move them along. They cooperate quite nicely, once I have marked two or three nice looking cells with larvae I then can shake the remainder combs, in the main I find between three to six cells. .

 

[ericbeaumont]

Do you think they sound 'swarmy'

No.

 

[TomH]

Thanks for the advice so far.

By way of an update, found what I am assuming was a virgin queen running around in there today. Seemed small compared to my other queens and was running all over the place. Tried to take a picture but my phone doesn't seem to agree with marigolds.

I did not see any eggs or capped brood, they seem to backfilling some of the brood comb with nectar now. Seemed quite tetchy as well compared to previous.

I was just going to leave them alone now for a couple of weeks, and see if she gets mated and starts laying?

 

[ericbeaumont]

was just going to leave them alone now for a couple of weeks, and see if she gets mated and starts laying?

Sounds about right.

When she starts you may see several eggs in one cell, but don't worry, she'll soon settle down to laying singles.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Have you put supers on?

 

[pargyle]

Sounds about right

When she starts you may see several eggs in one cell, but don't worry, she'll soon settle down to laying singles.

.

 

[TomH]

Thanks, will look out for eggs next time I check.

It's a rose hive, currently on three boxes, with no queen excluder.

Bottom two boxes were pretty much all drawn and full of brood (prior to me losing the swarms). The uppermost box is probably about 1/3 drawn frames, the rest still foundation (some full sheets and some starter strips).

I haven't got any more drawn comb unfortunately, so I guess the frames with foundation may have contributed to the swarming, as she just ran out of laying space.

 

[ericbeaumont]

too slow in giving them more space earlier on?

Tom, there's a trick to adding boxes and you made the mistake I made when I first tried it.

If you stick a box of foundation on top of the first box bees may draw it out for the queen to expand the nest or use it for nectar, depending whether there's a flow on or you feed syrup, both fuel for wax production.

When they make up their mind to swarm they'll not bother to draw foundation. A test is to slot a foundation frame into the nest and check the following week.

When double brooding is needed next year, take 4 or so frames of open brood and put them in the centre of the new top box.

Condense the remaining brood into the centre of the bottom box and add foundation to the flanks of both boxes to fill.

By doing this you extend the nest (while maintaining it's heat and integrity) and spread the bees over two boxes immediately. Super(s) will probably be needed at the same time.

This spread may well put the outcome in your favour, but as bees are invariably variable, it does remain deliciously uncertain.

 

[TomH]

Some lovely practical advice, thank you Eric. With my other colonies I have since moved a few brood frames up, not quite exactly as you suggested, but it has seemed to have encouraged them up and drawing out wax. Makes sense as you say from a heat retention point of view to move up a few together and add the foundation at the edges below. Will bear that in mind for next time. Thanks again for explaining.

but as bees are invariably variable, it does remain deliciously uncertain.

Love it! Keeps us coming back for more I suppose