what to do with a failing hive

[pete_allotments]

Dear forum,

As a newbie keeper, I'm looking for some advice.

History:
Nuc introduced into new hive on 9 May, and then fed with light syrup
Hive progressed well, and super added on 29 May
Hive swarmed on 1 June
Inspected on 1 July, and unable to see queen or new larvae
Inspected on 16 July, and again unable to see queen or new larvae. number of bees seemed reduced
Inspected yesterday (25 July) and hive contains a "few" bees (in the order of 100-200 bees), no brood.

It looks as if the colony did not recover from the swarm (either due to poor beekeeping, or not raising new queen)

I have other hive that are doing well, with new larvae and brood. At present I don't want to "move brood" to the failing hive, and compromise the good hives.

What should I do with frames in the failing hive?
There are frames of "capped honey", "partly capped honey", "uncapped honey" and open brood areas.
The longer term plan is to introduce a new colony into the hive next spring.

Any suggestions would be useful.

Thanks for your help with this hive.

 

[mbc]

Dear forum,

As a newbie keeper, I'm looking for some advice.

History:
Nuc introduced into new hive on 9 May, and then fed with light syrup
Hive progressed well, and super added on 29 May
Hive swarmed on 1 June
Inspected on 1 July, and unable to see queen or new larvae
Inspected on 16 July, and again unable to see queen or new larvae. number of bees seemed reduced
Inspected yesterday (25 July) and hive contains a "few" bees (in the order of 100-200 bees), no brood.

It looks as if the colony did not recover from the swarm (either due to poor beekeeping, or not raising new queen)

I have other hive that are doing well, with new larvae and brood. At present I don't want to "move brood" to the failing hive, and compromise the good hives.

What should I do with frames in the failing hive?
There are frames of "capped honey", "partly capped honey", "uncapped honey" and open brood areas.
The longer term plan is to introduce a new colony into the hive next spring.

Any suggestions would be useful.

Thanks for your help with this hive.

Use it as a super on one of the other hives.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Nuc introduced into new hive on 9 May, and then fed with light syrup
Hive progressed well, and super added on 29 May
Hive swarmed on 1 June

As you have two others, Pete, I suggest you call it a day with this lot: shake out the bees on a flying day and remove hive and stand from the area.

Put the combs above QXs of the other two to fill with nectar; extract as usual and store combs in a sealed box safe from wax moth and mouse.

Wax moth is tricky to eradicate: simple option is to freeze the combs for 48 hours and seal. Expensive option is to treat with Dipel or Bruco (same as Dipel but cheaper) but if you do, sell the rest in small jars to other beekeepers because you'll never use it all before the use-by date.

Analysis of the swarming: overfeeding led to nest congestion; beekeeper missed inspections and QCs; beekeeper added space above the nest when really nest space was needed weeks before (perhaps double brood).

 

[pete_allotments]

Eric,

Thanks for this useful information.
Like a number of "new beekeepers", I've done the local beekeeper course, and "got the book(s)".
I now realise I know very little!

It raises the following questions:
1) Is it safe to move frames between apiaries? could I "spread" infections?
2) I've been advised to "feed" nuc's on arrival into a new hive (with at least 2L of light syrup) - is this good action?
3) how often should I be inspecting a hive? (I normally inspect every 7-10 days, and spotting queen cells can be difficult - they look nothing like the books !)
4) what decision would you use for adding nest space or brood space? (haynes says "when full add more") !!
5) would you advise going for "double brood" or 14x12 frames - I know each person has a view on this!!!

Thanks for your help to a newbie!

Pete

 

[drex]

1. You obviously could spread infection moving any bees or equipment . If you are confident there is none then go ahead. You are relatively new, so might be an idea to ask an experienced beek to look over the dwindling colony
2. They will have a lot of comb to draw so will need supplies. If there is a good flow on, I would not feed. Otherwise I would feed little and often, otherwise they will store it
3. Things are starting to slow down. Now I am looking in every 10-14 days, if that, or if needed. During season it is once a week. A queen cell is sealed at day 8 and they will swarm before then or at that time, if that is their intention.
4&5. As I have said things are slowing down now, in particular her rate of lay. Earlier in season, when BB has about 8 frames of brood I add another box, for either more brood or honey as conditions dictate. I add supers when the top one is getting crowded with bees. Unfortunately it takes experience to judge, but it is still warm and if you add space before it is needed then not much harm will be done. ( you can always take it off again)- it will be different at other times in year
I run double brood. It gives me more flexibility.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks for this useful information.
Like a number of "new beekeepers", I've done the local beekeeper course, and "got the book(s)".
I now realise I know very little!

It raises the following questions:
1) Is it safe to move frames between apiaries? could I "spread" infections?
Yes if they are your frames and you don't have any disease evident.

2) I've been advised to "feed" nuc's on arrival into a new hive (with at least 2L of light syrup) - is this goo action?
Depends on what forage is available at the time you transfer them. It's a good idea to limit the space when you transfer a nuc down to a couple more frames than the nuc - fill the remaining space with insulation. The more space they have to cope with the more difficult it is for them to manage the hoive temperature and this has an effect on comb drawing and brooding. If there is plenty of forage they should not need feeding ... if there's not much about it will help them draw comb. If they have frames of stores from the nuc that you have transferred over they should not need feeding.

3) how often should I be inspecting a hive? (I normally inspect every 7-10 days, and spotting queen cells can be difficult - they look nothing like the books !)
During the swarm season I inspect every 7 days but as the season progresses (and I know what to look for in my bees) less frequently. An inspection does not necessarily mean you have to tear the hive appart. Have a dummy frame at the end of the hive, take that out and slide the frames along until you come to the brood area - queen cells will usually be on frames with brood on them. Just inspect those and look particularly around the edges and at the bottom - they often hide them in corners and other nooks and crannies in the comb.

4) what decision would you use for adding nest space or brood space? (haynes says "when full add more") !!
7 to 8 full frames of brood in the brood box - add a super.

5) would you advise going for "double brood" or 14x12 frames - I know each person has a view on this!!!
That's a personal preference - I like 14 x 12 and never have to mess about with double brood, I don't use queen excluders and sometimes a prolific queen will lay into the first super - it's not a problem as I tend to take my crop late in the season by which time the brood nest has contracted and they have back filled with honey. But ... if you are running standard nationals and have prolific queens you may neeed to go double brood ... I'd avoid brood and a half as it's just a pain (my opinion - lothers love it !)

 

[ericbeaumont]

1) Is it safe to move frames between apiaries? could I "spread" infections?

Standard advice is to use combs on the colony that made them, but with experience you'll use them within an apiary.

I'm guessing that you have one colony at one site and two at another: unless there is good reason, you may be better off consolidating all into one apiary.

2) I've been advised to "feed" nuc's on arrival into a new hive (with at least 2L of light syrup) - is this goo action?

Depends: not if there's a flow on, but do so in a dearth. The advice is general; the idea is that bees use the syrup to draw the 6 frames of foundation, but if there's a flow on it may only fill laying space.

3) how often should I be inspecting a hive? (I normally inspect every 7-10 days, and spotting queen cells can be difficult - they look nothing like the books !)

Every 7 days. This must not be varied until you're experienced (give it three-five years). Reason is that if QCs are started the moment you put on the hive roof after a check, a swarm will not leave until after a QC is capped on day 8. As you check on day 7 you can take action to avoid losing your bees; read and practice the artificial swarm, which is a doddle.

4) what decision would you use for adding nest space or brood space? (haynes says "when full add more") !!

Brood space is crucial to head off swarming and works in tandem with nectar space. Add a second BB when the first is on about 6-8 frames of brood and full with bees. No matter how many supers you add, if nest space is clogged with nectar the queen will run out of space to lay and the colony will swarm.

A single National is often too small for modern queens and a second BB is the answer (if necessary, a third). Put four or so frames of open brood into the middle of the new top box; condense the remaining brood into the middle of the bottom box; add foundation to both boxes to fill, and put them together. Add a QX and super.

5) would you advise going for "double brood" or 14x12 frames - I know each person has a view on this!!!

The National BB answers most needs if used in multiples.

14x12 seems a tempting answer but in reality it limits options: what to do if that 41% extra space over a National deep is not enough? To double-brood a 14x12 means shifting a top box of 70lbs! I tried it for a few years and concluded it was insufficiently flexible.

Standard National deeps are what you have, so you may as well acquire experience with them and make it work, but don't expect to use only one box for the queen.

A hive should be a flexible system but too often beginners are taught in straight lines: imagine an accordion playing an annual tune chosen by bees, but with your fingers on the keys. You must expand or contract with the tune and it takes time to learn.

 

[pargyle]

Eric,

Thanks for this useful information.
Like a number of "new beekeepers", I've done the local beekeeper course, and "got the book(s)".
I now realise I know very little!

It raises the following questions:
1) Is it safe to move frames between apiaries? could I "spread" infections?
2) I've been advised to "feed" nuc's on arrival into a new hive (with at least 2L of light syrup) - is this goo action?
3) how often should I be inspecting a hive? (I normally inspect every 7-10 days, and spotting queen cells can be difficult - they look nothing like the books !)
4) what decision would you use for adding nest space or brood space? (haynes says "when full add more") !!
5) would you advise going for "double brood" or 14x12 frames - I know each person has a view on this!!!

Thanks for your help to a newbie!

Pete

There you are ... you have three answers more or less saying the same thing (unusual in beekeeping !) but a lot of the in-between the lines advice is that you have to THINK about your beekeeping and what the bees need at any given time. It is pointless trying to be a beekeeper and think only in lineal terms - you have to learn to be reactive and proactive at the same time... think ahead but plan to be ready now.

There are many ways to manage the space for your colony - very few of them are wrong - it's a matter of personal preference - the key is to give them enough space within the format of the kit you have available and have chosen as your preferred hive type. Try and get some experience of other hive formats and see what works best for you ... As I said, I like 14 x 12 as I don't have to mess about with multiple brood boxes ... but each to their own.

 

[oliver90owner]

If the colony was not suffering any health issues would only move frames to one other colony - just in case. If only a couple hundred bees, I would give up on them and let them dwindle completely - I would not be adding them to other colonies unless certain about their health!

Next season is the time to change frame sizes or doubling or brood and a half. Your current attention should be to get healthy winter bees (with adequate stores, preferably) at the end of this season to go through the winter. That mainly means checking and treating for varroa as necessary is the main priority. Feeding over winter can be dealt with later.

Feeding ‘on arrival’ is p. poor advice. The guiding rule is whether or not there is sufficient stores to last them to the next inspection. Weather, brooding and forage are the main considerations while assessing that. Better to be safe than starved, obviously (but there is nothing stopping the beekeeper from adding stores if conditions change). Only ‘beekeepers’ who close their eyes and minds - and don’t react to any changes - just feed without thinking.

Was your colony suffering from wax moth? I didn’t notice that.

 

[REDWOOD]

Shame to hear that you and others are done with associations

 

[pete_allotments]

Dear all,

Thanks for the useful advice. As pargyle says "this advice is very similar", and is all about the transition from "novice" to "experienced" - "look and learn", "talk to others", "think like a colony" !

A little more information:
I have 2 apiaries, one on an allotment (which is allowed 3 hives at present), the other in a farmers field about 3 miles away. I want to keep the second in case the allotments "ask me to move quickly", and also allow me to expand the number of colonies.

I checked the "failing hive" today, and there were even less bees in it - thus I'm going to let it "dwindle".
I've not seen any "wax moth" in the hive. I'm also asking a local experienced beekeeper to check the frames.

My plan is to:
Take honey from the frames (I have about about 4 frames with capped honey).
I'm then planning to
Freeze all frames for 48 hours and then store in sealed plastic bags - similar to freezer bags - inside larger clear box(es). The frames would then be put into the hive next spring.
Bring the hive home, "char"/"scorch" the inside of the hive, including the floor and crown board. Wrap in clingfilm (or similar) and store either outside or in garage loft space.
Place hive back in position next spring, and introduce a new colony into the hive

I had other ideas, but as I was writing them, they seemed to be solutions that caused issues.
(eg : putting frames in good hives, leave frames and hive in position overwinter)

As you all say - check the good colonies for varroa and treat as required, and get them ready to overwinter (wasp guards, feed heavy syrup, insulate roof)

 

[ericbeaumont]

thus I'm going to let it "dwindle".

Problem with this option is that a weak and declining colony will be under stress and more likely to succumb to opportunistic disease and robbing.

If the reason for colony failure is that it's queenless, a shake-out will not compromise the health of another colony.

Good plan to get another pair of eyes on it.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Freeze all frames for 48 hours and then store in sealed plastic bags

Take care when freezing combs because they become brittle and will shatter easily.

Bring the hive home, "char"/"scorch" the inside of the hive, including the floor and crown board.

Scraping then scrubbing in a hot solution of washing soda will clean parts well.

Suggest you assemble the cleaned hive, put into it the frozen frames and tape up the joints with duck tape.