What to do: split or wait it out?

[Jeff M]

As explained previously, after finding the queen and brood in a super above the QE and the brood box full of nectar I switched the boxes around (12/5). The queen moved up into the brood box, the bees made space amongst the stores and she started laying. I put a QE and super of drawn comb on top of the BB, and have been waiting for the lower super to clear of brood so I can remove it.

On inspection yesterday afternoon I saw the queen and she is still laying although it looks like there's no more space for brood as the outside 2-3 brood frames on both sides are full of capped honey.

The lower super is all drone brood on about 4-5 frames, with 2 queen cells; one open with a larva and the other was just finishing off being capped as I watched.

There are some bees in the upper super just hanging about; no sign of honey in there at all yet.

As I see it I have 2 options, but not entirely sure which way to go:

1. Remove the queen cells and replace the capped honey brood frames with new frames (only have foundation no drawn comb) then wait it out to see what happens.

2. Make a split now to prevent a swarm.

Which way should I go?

Cheers,

Jeff.

 

[dn170221]

I would choose option3 An artificial swarm. In my view, once they start making preparations to swarm they don't stop!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

 

[Jeff M]

Thanks for the advice so far.

OK, I opened the hive today after the rain had cleared with the intention of doing an AS; the apiary is well protected from the wind. However, I couldn't find the queen despite a very concerted effort; first inspection where I haven't seen her. If she's already gone then there are still a whole lot of bees in the hive.

I rechecked the QC I saw yesterday, which was only partially sealed. When I checked it there was a worker inside. The other QC has now been drawn out and sealed but its a very puny looking thin one! I marked it on the frame anyway, but only a single solitary QC?

I noticed today that there are eggs on a frame in the lower super.

I replaced one frame of capped honey with a new frame of foundation to create some more space in the brood box.

I've probably missed the queen due to more bees being in the hive than during my last inspections probably due to the weather. I really don't think they've already gone given the weather and the number of bees in the hive.

Any further comments or advice?

Thanks.

 

[BeeJayBee]

If she's already gone then there are still a whole lot of bees in the hive.

Not surprising the hive is still full of bees, because they'll still be emerging from their cells. One full frame of sealed brood contains enough bees to cover three frames - the adults take up more space horizontally than they do when they're developing vertically in the cells.

 

[Amari]

I would choose option3 An artificial swarm. In my view, once they start making preparations to swarm they don't stop!

Only two Qcells so it could be supercedure - with swarming one would expect half a dozen or more QC
-

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Did you say ONLY drone brood? I believe so.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Did you say ONLY drone brood? I believe so.

No - he said the lower super (about 4-5 frames) was all drone brood, nothing unexpecred there - the main brood box he implied is chock a block with normal brood

 

[Cellectronic]

Not surprising the hive is still full of bees, because they'll still be emerging from their cells. One full frame of sealed brood contains enough bees to cover three frames - the adults take up more space horizontally than they do when they're developing vertically in the cells.

What a great statement, the obvious is not always obvious .
Great info. Thanks.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

No - he said the lower super (about 4-5 frames) was all drone brood, nothing unexpecred there - the main brood box he implied is chock a block with normal brood

OP could you clarify please; in my image of the colony I see the possibility the QCs are on drone brood since you said they were on the same super.

 

[Jeff M]

OP could you clarify please; in my image of the colony I see the possibility the QCs are on drone brood since you said they were on the same super.

Yes, the 2 QCs are on different frames of drone brood in the super beneath the brood box.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Yes, the 2 QCs are on different frames of drone brood in the super beneath the brood box.

I'm only the newbie around here myself so I may be shying at shadows but the way you've described it looks a bit worrying to me (again, it's all only in my mind's eye of course) but if she was laying in the supers and there is only drone brood in the supers then we need to know that the brood she is laying in the brood box is not drone brood. She has been there since 12th so long enough for some to be sealed. Are there workers? The QCs might not be indicative, being on drone brood; there must be a chance they contain drones, as definitely happens and happened to me last season.

 

[Jeff M]

I'm only the newbie around here myself so I may be shying at shadows but the way you've described it looks a bit worrying to me (again, it's all only in my mind's eye of course) but if she was laying in the supers and there is only drone brood in the supers then we need to know that the brood she is laying in the brood box is not drone brood. She has been there since 12th so long enough for some to be sealed. Are there workers? The QCs might not be indicative, being on drone brood; there must be a chance they contain drones, as definitely happens and happened to me last season.

The brood box all looks pretty normal apart from the fact that there are a lot of stores on the outside frames due to the box being full of nectar when I got the hive. There are plenty of workers/nurse bees. The brood pattern is textbook with the odd cluster of drone cells around the edges.

The lower super is all drone brood. After I switched the boxes and the queen had moved up I originally placed a QE between the 2 to stop the Q returning to lay in the super. I wanted to clear the super and remove it. However, I took the QE away as I realised I was trapping the drones; not sure whether I need worry about that.

It makes sense that the Q may have gone down to lay there as the bees would have had to clear more brood frame stores to make space for her, hence why I've replaced one frame with foundation.

I'm thinking that I might check again this afternoon when the foragers are out to see if I can find the queen, though conscious that this will be 3 days in a row. They are very good tempered though.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The brood box all looks pretty normal ..............The brood pattern is textbook with the odd cluster of drone cells around the edges.

The lower super is all drone brood. ................I'm thinking that I might check again this afternoon when the foragers are out to see if I can find the queen, though conscious that this will be 3 days in a row. They are very good tempered though.

If they were going to swarm/supersede, it matters not if the QC's are in the middle of drone brood, the bees build the cells and the queen lays a suitable egg (in this case fertilised) in it. We are probably not talking emergency cells as there is evidence of queen laying but if we were then I would be worried as extending a drone cell would indicate a drone larva.
I'm just wondering whaqt kind of foundation you had in this shallow box (it ain't a super in this case as it isn't on top so let's not confuse the issue further) as it is all drone brood in anotherwise normal brood pattern I would be asking the question whether you used drone foundation.

Listen to sense not incorrect surmise.
What would you gain by opening up again? if the QC's are still in there are they now occupied?
To be honest, if these frames were all drone I would be tempted to cull the lot.
The most important thing I can see at the moment is you need to sort out the laying space issue.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Good. So I am indeed shying at shadows. Good news and I'll sit down. I'll throw another option in for discussion first though; if they are supersedure cells they need to get on with it and if swarm cells she is gone so another alternative is to leave them be just as they are for a while and ask around for a Plan B just in case.

<ADD>The force to produce drones is strong; drone foundation (if that is what it was) might have been what tempted her through the QE in the first place.</ADD>

<ADDADD>

To be honest, if these frames were all drone I would be tempted to cull the lot.

Leaving the QCs!! You need those, to show off my MBO degree...
</ADDADD>

 

[Jeff M]

OK, so the shallow box could have drone foundation in it, hadn't thought to check.

I know that one QC is empty, the other is very smooth and thin and quite small. I wouldn't be surprised if that's empty also.

I was planning to wait for the bees to start drawing the foundation brood frame before adding another, as I've heard its best to only add one at a time. The bees might use up some of the stores to do this creating even more space?

The bees are still behaving normally today.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

It might be a droopy drone cell. Doesn't really affect things at this point.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

OK, so the shallow box could have drone foundation in it, hadn't thought to check.

I know that one QC is empty, the other is very smooth and thin and quite small. I wouldn't be surprised if that's empty also.

I was planning to wait for the bees to start drawing the foundation brood frame before adding another, as I've heard its best to only add one at a time. The bees might use up some of the stores to do this creating even more space?

The bees are still behaving normally today.

Doesn't sound like a QC TBH. I would be tempted to leae them sort themselves out now.