What are you going to do with winter losses?

[Finman]

not really strange data - 2008/9 was mild and damp, both 2009/10 and 2010/11 have been very cold with snow laying for weeks in some places. so 28-30%, 19%, 15% either suggests our bees thrive on the cold OR that BKF advice has really hit the spot!!!!

that is not an answer. And you bees do not thrive in cold. Believe me. Do you mean that when you go nearer to Africa, winter losses grow. That is rubbish.

When you look a graph, it tells that losses were under 15%. Another report says that they were 20% and 30%.

Uk is not only state in the world. Loot at Europe map, which countries are south from England and to North of England. You have very near Denmark and Holland. Norway has a huge rainfall.

What about Italy? Is it colder place in winter than England?
Do you have oranges in gardens or grapes?

Something wrong in your bee patriotism.

.

 

[Finman]

either suggests our bees thrive on the cold OR that BKF advice has really hit the spot!!!!

our bees and your bees

i was told that most common race in Uk is Italian and second is Carniolan. - just like we have.

You have German Blacks and Buckfasts - what ever they are....

And an unaccountable amount of mongrels. No one can classify them .

You have for example queens from New Zealand. They all have died here in winter when they were imported here.

Yes, our bees do not like cold. The warmer the winter the better condition hives have in Spring.

 

[oliver90owner]

Finman,

For the last five years my winter losses have been under 5%. I haven't taken BKF advice for these figures, I use my own head.

I don't expect to achieve that this year (I do know why, and I will be extreeemly lucky if I were to stay below 5% losses). But this winter, I will not be worrying too much - again, I have my reasons, and one or three know what they are. How have your winter losses averaged over, say, the last 5 years?

RAB

 

[bees4u]

.

I have read quite much special tricks here and I have found that after my 49 years in beekeeping has no value in your extra ordinary Isles. But I ask, why your winter losses are so high? Why your match sticks and super ventilating does not save colonies from cold.

Bees die for cold. That is why there are winter losses.


My long experience tells that succesfull wintering needs

1) a beestock which reacts correctly on Autumn and stops brood rearing.

2) there is a minimum size, how small cluster will survive over winter.
You have a long summer to build up the clony to the size which fill the whole box.
- it is merely dead out. Nosema is worse enemy than dead out.
- join colonies if they are too small. Spring buil up needs it too. No too early splits.

3) enough warm winter protection and no draft in the hive. So food will be enough to Spring.

4) Spring build up is more valuable than surviving alive over winter.

5) a succesful summer nursing that colonies will grow strong. It is vein effort to try rear them strong in Autumn.


6) minimum swarm size is one full box that it is able to become a normal colony. Join the swarms if they are small.

High losses in winter is down to bad bee keeping. I haven't lost any hives for 2 years from winter losses, I put this down to having young good queens, fed well with Tate & lyle sugar and treated with oxalic acid in December. Too many bee keepers try & keep weak hives through the winter, these should be united, one strong hive is better than 2 weak ones. All my hives are kept in different ways, some with varroa floors & other normal floors, no extra vents & most with solid boards for crown boards. here we go...............

 

[Crg]

High losses in winter is down to bad bee keeping. I haven't lost any hives for 2 years from winter losses, I put this down to having young good queens, fed well with Tate & lyle sugar and treated with oxalic acid in December.

I agree, (well except for being picky about the sugar brand ).

 

[Finman]

.
Often explanation to winter losses comes from previous summer. The worst are dry summers.
Bees do not get enough good pollen. Winter bees will be weak.

Then too good summer and long brood period may rise varroa level unexpectedly high.

But actually European countries have started to examine winter losses and the reasons to them.
The research is only couple of years old. In eastern Europe they even do not know number of hives. How do they know how much have died.

Reasons are many.

Nosema is one really bad disease. It does not kill but weakends colony size. The build up is slow when nosema has spoiled the colony.

 

[bees4u]

I agree, (well except for being picky about the sugar brand ).

Hi Crg, I've kept bees for 32 yrs and fed them all sorts of rubbish over the years, sweepings from sugar companys & sweet makers etc and the silver spoon sugar, but another bee farmer said to me that I should only stick to Tate & Lyle, so I tried it and I haven't had any losses. That's my reasons, so fingers crossed I'll have the same results this coming winter

 

[alanf]

According to BBKA survey recent winter losses have been

2007 30%
2008 19%
2009 18%
2010 14%

Good news that the losses appear to be falling, but explanations are lacking. On the one hand I would be wary of taking these figures as absolute, they are a sample of BBKA members amounting to around 2% of the estimated hives, median number 2. On the other hand, the methodology has been repeated year to year so annual variation is likely to be more accurate.

To take the South East as a sample (just my home bias) the numbers look like:

2007-8 26.0
2008-9 18.7
2009-10 17.9
2010-11 14.0

The sort of explanation that could be put forward is improving practice or some sort of weather related factor. Practice is hard to quantify but we can look at weather. The survey was in response to anecdotally high losses, so we'll include 2006-7.

Take weather station data for monthly average min and max (Heathrow) as fairly typical (chart below). It is striking that the lower losses are associated with an earlier and more severe onset of lower temperatures. Not on the Finnish scale, obviously. [edit] As Finman suggests, the higher temperature over the previous summer may also have something to do with it.

There is little obvious correlation with rainfall. If we take the 6 months rain total Oct-Mar each year:

2007-8 26.0% loss 217mm rain
2008-9 18.7% 317mm
2009-10 17.9% 464mm
2010-11 14.0% 262mm

[edit] the previous summer rainfall (Apr-Sep) might be a stronger link, but could need better definition of critical periods. The idea that dry summers are to blame does not stand up, the driest summer was followed by the lowest losses.

2007-8 26.0% loss 321mm rain
2008-9 18.7% 339mm
2009-10 17.9% 239mm
2010-11 14.0% 201mm

We probably don't have enough data to draw firm conclusions but it could well be that there is something about UK practice that is better suited to the colder winters which were more typical years ago. Recent unexpected mild winters have led to losses which have either reversed with the weather or prompted action to change. The net sales of various treatments or hive materials may make interesting reading.

What would also be interesting is to see the loss data for the larger honey farms. Not because I would expect them to be so much better or worse but because I would expect them to be more consistent in practice year to year. I suspect they take a more critical judgement on weaker colonies in autumn than the average backyard keeper. Simple logistics must mean that they are more constrained than those with a few hives who can always change timings or practice in reaction to the weather.

The chart shows monthly mean average min and max temperature in degrees C at Heathrow from Jan 2006 to Jun 2011 http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/stationdata/heathrowdata.txt

 

[Finman]

.
When we had dry summer 4 years ago, we got rain 20 mm in 4 months. May to August.

Do you think that 200 mm is dry?

 

[alanf]

.
When we had dry summer 4 years ago, we got rain 20 mm in 4 months. May to August.

Do you think that 200 mm is dry?

April 2011 had 2.4mm, following March with 14.6mm. June, on the other hand had over 80. If this winter turns out to be high loss, it could be worth looking at rainfall during critical periods for certain regions. Tricky part is identifying critical periods when the local flora varies so much.

Was your dry summer followed by heavy losses?

[edit] Checking April 2007, the rainfall was 3.6mm and the losses high. The rainfall was not low this year in the West and North, only the South and East. Potentially very interesting to check regional losses next year.

 

[Finman]

.
Not this summer, but nearly 10 years ago in Finland, Sweden and north German losses were about 60%. I lost too 60% of my colonies. That was a spring when I begun to use electrict heating to save my few colonies.

Last summer in western coast of Usa one island lost 90% of bees. The report said that summer was very dry.

 

[Cazza]

Hi Finman
I think you are having a go at British beekeepers again! Is this a hobby?
My winter losses for the last 5 years have been 0% 0% 0% 0% and 0% (o.k only a few hives.) Some of us must be doing something right.
Cazza

 

[peteinwilts]

You have for example queens from New Zealand. They all have died here in winter when they were imported here.

ITLD's input in the spring, and long term would be interesting regarding this...

 

[Finman]

Some of us must be doing something right.
Cazza

you must have a good advisor when you have managed that well.

Very experinced professionals may loose lots of hives. Nothing is sure.

 

[Cazza]

you must have a good advisor when you have managed that well.

Very experinced professionals may loose lots of hives. Nothing is sure.

Thank you Finman. I don't have an advisor, only myself and since 2010, this lovely forum. Perhaps "pride comes before a fall?" (British proverb)
C

 

[susan2016]

Heather, what's your animated icon? Looks a bit cruel!

 

[Griff]

Does look a trifle cruel but I think it's FLOGGING A DEAD HORSE !!!!

 

[chipper]

You think we Brits have got trouble with the weather....
Go look at the Icelandic Beekeepers Association website......
Marvellous persistance and loads of money ALL to keep Honey Bees in a cold climate.....!!!

 

[Finman]

.

Actually your winter loss numbers are not bad.

You have a splended weather there. the Scotch have never used pants.
And houses need not insulation.

I was just worried.

 

[oliver90owner]

Finman,

There seem to be quite a few on here that buck the trend, as far as winter losses are concerned, so it can be done. There may also be a lot out there that simply accept high losses, year after year, without giving it a thought - yes, non-thinking beekeepers.

One also needs to remember that reporting a % loss can be misleading if beeks were to be losing just their weakest hive..., and polls can be, shall we say, skewed by an inappropriate questionnaire, which I believe often happens (a lot of them on this forum!).

I recall questioning the 'accuracy' of one, several years ago, and did not return my results for two reasons - a poor questionnaire and a 'mind your own business' attitude as far as the number of colonies I was running! (In other words the questionnaire was not (just), in my view, looking for reliable winter losses, but was intrusive as it could be used as a means of finding the locations/names of keepers with several hives.

I remember about 8 years ago, a whole swath of surprising winter losses locally, and mine were a little high too. However some local beekeepers (with a dozen, maybe twenty, colonies) were losing nearly 100%). I actually heard of one local beek who lost all 26. As I recall, my losses were a little over 20%, so again I seemed to buck the local trend - and I was still on a fairly steep learning curve. At the time I counted myself as a very lucky keeper to avoid those high losses. We never knew why there were such losses, even though it was aired at a local BKA meeting at the time.

So, to my question again. What were your typical losses over winter for, say, the last 5 years? You have discusssed everyone elses, except yours it seems.

RAB