What are they up to here

[alynewbee]

Dear All,

I'm (not for the first time) a bit puzzled.

On 20/6 I found two sealed queen cells and several others with larvae in. Did an artificial swarm as per Hooper. I removed the two sealed queen cells and marked the position of the two unsealed one. Both looked nice and big and juicy. Both were in the middle of the frame (supercedure?). I'm leaving that hive (the one with queen cells) alone for three weeks for the new queen to emerge and hopefully mate. Following week I checked my swarmed hive (with old queeny in) and all was well, no queen cells and plenty of foundation drawing going on. But this week there is a big unsealed queen cell in the middle of one of the frames with a fat larvae in it (sorry the pic isn't so great but it gives an idea of position). It appears to be the only one. The old queen was in there too. Saw larvae in several sizes but didn't spot eggs - probably my eyes.

So - what to do? My bees are in my garden so I want to avoid a swarm at all costs - but having just done an AS a couple of weeks ago I have no spare equipment to do another one. Are they trying to supercede? Should I just shut up shop for three weeks or so and let them get on with it ?

I'd really appreciate any help / ideas / wisdom you guys could offer.

Many thanks

Aly

 

[huntsman666]

Yes, they're supersede cells, meaning they are not happy with the existing queen or she got injured for some reason. You say you saw the old queen but no eggs.

If so, then both hives will need a supersede cell and this is what they are doing.

I'd work on the basis that the bees know best and leave them to it.

It it works out and it should, you'll have two colonies with nice young queens going into the winter.

 

[VEG]

looks like supercedure. How do you have such a large piece of comb hanging from the bottom of the frame? There shouldnt be that much room under the frame to the floor.

 

[alynewbee]

looks like supercedure. How do you have such a large piece of comb hanging from the bottom of the frame? There shouldnt be that much room under the frame to the floor.

Hi Veg,
THanks for the reply about supercedure, I'm beginning to breathe normally again! That comb is there as it's my 'short' frame that I use as part of my varroa management.

Thanks again
Aly

 

[alynewbee]

Also, I forgot to mention that this queen that I think is now being superceded arrived in a swarm in April so I've no idea how old she is. Also, the other bees seem to show her no respect when she walks around the hive - they just seem to ignore her. They were probably just waiting to get rid of her.

 

[victor meldrew]

Also, I forgot to mention that this queen that I think is now being superceded arrived in a swarm in April so I've no idea how old she is. Also, the other bees seem to show her no respect when she walks around the hive - they just seem to ignore her. They were probably just waiting to get rid of her.

A common event is supercedure after swarming . The old queen is usually past her prime and depending on the season (ie do the colony have 3 to 4 weeks to spare before new Queen can start to build up both stores and Winter bees )

VM

 

[MJBee]

Hi Veg,
THanks for the reply about supercedure, I'm beginning to breathe normally again! That comb is there as it's my 'short' frame that I use as part of my varroa management.

Thanks again

The "wild" comb under your short frame looks like worker rather than drone. This is normal at this stage of the season, the colony decides it doesn't need any more drones so builds worker cells for the queen to lay in. Leave this to emerge don't cull it, workers are precious from now on.








'

 

[alynewbee]

Thank you, I think you're right as it certainly looks a lot smaller and neater than the drone comb they were building earlier. I'll just leave it from now on to emerge. Thanks again. Aly

 

[freethorpe bees]

Aly, the same thing happened to me when I did an AS, the old queen was superseded. I think it is quite a common occurrence.

FB

 

[Tom Bick]

Just a word of caution I have had two hives this year one a swarm and another with a failing queen both producing the perfect supercedure cell in the centre of a frame.

The thing is I left them alone and they swarmed it looked to me that say 4 days after producing the supercedure cell they then produced a few swarm cells and when the first queen emerged they swarmed.

So if you want to prevent a swarm my advice is to keep an eye on them for a few days.

 

[alynewbee]

Just a word of caution I have had two hives this year one a swarm and another with a failing queen both producing the perfect supercedure cell in the centre of a frame.

The thing is I left them alone and they swarmed it looked to me that say 4 days after producing the supercedure cell they then produced a few swarm cells and when the first queen emerged they swarmed.

So if you want to prevent a swarm my advice is to keep an eye on them for a few days.

Excellent advice, thank you. I was pondering to myself that as my supercedure cell is not yet sealed, I should be safe to have a look in a week's time to see if they've made any more cells without the risk of freaking out a newly mated queen on her way back in. If I find that they have made swarm cells, would you recommend that I just get rid of them and leave the supercedure cell?

Aly

 

[oliver90owner]

freethorpe bees,

the old queen was superseded.

One reason for swarming can be the reduction in queen pheromone. That is often the case with an old queen (and with a large colony, too). We induce supercedure cells by separating the eggs/young brood from the brood nest as a means of organised A/S.

New colony then has an old queen with reduced pheromones, so they supercede her. The old queen is very - well, fairly - unlikely to swarm twice, so that change of queen goes to the normal supercedure plan.

So yes, quite common and nearly always occurs sometime after a swarm and before that colony swarms. Often soon after the swarm, often later (around the onset of autumn) and sometimes at very inconvenient times (late autumn or very early spring) when mating is nigh on impossible!

Regards, RAB

 

[alynewbee]

Thank you all so much once again for your help and advice. I'm going to leave them for a week, have a quick peek to check for swarm cells next Monday and take it from there.
ALy

 

[drstitson]

if that's a representative frame (or the original?) at 14 days post AS then no wonder they are superceding - not been much laying going on.

(any sealed brood from AS will have hatched and so any new sealed will be over a week old)