Views please

[user 3509]

At a beekeeping convention on Saturday one of the speakers made the statement that top bee space is best. He did not expand on this, and as a bottom bee space user I have been trying to find information on the Internet to support this claim. I have not been able to find anything conclusive. One of the questions on a old Module 1 exam paper asks for the pros and cons of top bee space and bottom bee space. Can those of you that use top bee space explain what the advantages of it are over bottom bee space in your experience. I have done a search on this forum for this information but was not able to find anything but if I have missed it could somebody point me in the right direction to find it.

 

[madasafish]

I have top BS langs and Zero beespace TBHs.

TBS: fondant feeding needs no eke
Treatment needs no eke.
Replacing supers? easy to sweep bees away from edges of hive and keeping them off... far fewer crushed bees.


No doubt lots of others and some cons as well..

 

[alanf]

There was a thread which Into The Lions Den /Murray contributed to.

On a commercial scale top space Langstroths are available as decent quality kit at a good price in bulk, mostly from the Eastern parts of Europe in wood or various sources in poly. That's more to do with common standards than inherently top/bottom space but crown boards at least are a simpler construction for top space which cuts the price.

There is an argument that topspace can be slightly faster to work; if a frame is sitting up because of a bit of wax or propolis, say, you might have to scrape it before putting on the next box if it's bottom space because it sits proud of the rest of the box. Top space has a bit more tolerance so can often be left until next time. I can't say I've ever worked with the number of hives where those extra seconds count, but it might make a difference.

There's also a case that you have a bit more leeway placing the next box on. Bees tend to move upward when the roof is off so a topspace box is less likely to scissor any bees emerging from between frames if you have to slide the box sideways. Bottom space you can take more care placing the boxes or send the bees down the frames with a puff of smoke first, again only seconds saved but in a big operation it can count.

 

[drstitson]

easier to make crown boards.

 

[snelgrove]

I used to have many Smith hives years ago which are top bee space. Crown boards are easier to place and I don't think you get as much brace comb between box's. I now use national hives and top bee space hives are certainly easier to make. Other than that I don't think there is much difference in either.

 

[Anduril]

IIRC less propolising of queen excluders and crown boards. Less surface area.

 

[snelgrove]

IIRC less propolising of queen excluders and crown boards. Less surface area.

Framed queen excluders a must with top bee space hives

 

[REDWOOD]

Before I started beekeeping I tried to find out what difference it made to the bees and the only thing I could find was temperature, although I don't think it would make much of a difference to the bees personally

 

[itma]

The question has been done to death many times on this forum - I'm surprised that they weren't findable.

I consider that it actually makes very little odds.
For example, whether there is more or less wax between boxes will depend on whether the beespace dimension is correct - NOT on whether the rim giving the space is attached to the upper or lower box!

There are two very minor but real differences that I would acknowledge.
Firstly, for the same hive style, hive construction can be marginally simpler with TBS. Specifically the difference is that the coverboard doesn't need a beespace rim. Errr, that's it. You may find that a reinforcing rim would help to prevent the board warping, so not so great really.
The second one seems to be the biggie for business-beekeepers. If/when the bees re-emerge upwards from between the frames, the TBS rim above the frames gives the bees further to travel before they get to the danger area of the box/box contact surface. Which gives you more time, or gives you fewer bees on that surface, which, if you are working against the clock will mean fewer bees squashed - which helps with bee temper and health as well as bee numbers.
Bees don't seem to rush out on foot to the underside of the box in the same way, so the beespace rim does more good on top than underneath.

Where I think people can go overboard is in expensively modifying hives - and thereby making them non-standard, and so tending to reduce their resale market and thus value.
Having a mixed collection of some top and some bottom beespace hives that are hard to distinguish is a recipe for problems for the small-scale beekeeper.

Whether the hives are top or bottom beespace, a simple sensible feature is to use a QX with a beespace rim.
I recall the forum joke about someone sending one back because the rim was on the wrong side for his TBS hive. Yes, TBS owners should have the rim on top, to provide beespace between the QX and the super frame bottoms ... but that is done by simply turning the thing over. Which reinforces my belief in the magnitude of the importance of the difference between top and bottom beespace...

 

[Firefly]

Framed queen excluders a must with top bee space hives

Just because they stick the QX to the frames, or some other reason?

 

[itma]

Just because they stick the QX to the frames, or some other reason?

Because without the rim, the QX contacts the bottom of the frames in the box above.
And any bees in the way get squashed.
Without you even knowing, let alone seeing and trying to do something about it.

It you insist on using an unframed QX on a BBS hive, at least you can see the bees at risk of squashing (bbs - under the QX) and act accordingly.

 

[Into the lions den]

I consider that it actually makes very little odds.
For example, whether there is more or less wax between boxes will depend on whether the beespace dimension is correct - NOT on whether the rim giving the space is attached to the upper or lower box!

Actually to us it made a great deal of difference, but on a small scale it will not.

However, for a few years we ran a unit (c250) of bottom bee space Nationals, a larger unit of top bee space Smiths, and a similar sized unit of top bee space Langstroths.

The difference in pace of working would, superficially be very little, BUT in the real world of teams in the field the difference was that you got between 20 and 40% MORE colonies worked with the top bee space hives than with the bottom bee space ones. This would be in part due to the amount of cleaning and scraping required with bottom bee space. (Frames etc MUST sit flush and be all cleaned underneath so the crown board etc sit down with the proper seal) AND the fact that the National is just a more awkward and slower box to work.

Slower because of the increased scraping and cleaning, the increased number of hiding places for queens when trying to find them, and even the fact you got one row less of this gear on the truck due to the dead space caused by the thicker front and back walls and ran an increased risk of having to return to base for more equipment.

After a few seasons of increasing frustration at extra costs (more man hours and marginally more truck time) to run Nationals they were punted off to another beekeeper.

In some countries the Langstroth is run bottom bee space. Makes compatibility something you have to be very careful with, and some of the poly makers make them with half bee space top and bottom. A real menace if you buy the wrong gear.

FWIW, it will make little difference in a small or amateur unit. Our budget is 6mins for all purposes per colony, so even 40% extra is only about 2.5 mins..........just adds up to a lot at the end of the day. Over say 60 hives done by one of our beekeepers it adds up to 2.5 hours wasted, at 9.00/hr....£22.50...per beekeeper per day. Over our whole unit and our active management season it adds £18000 to our costs for no extra production were we to be using TBS Nationals. Small things soon add up, an important point for anyone starting out and thinking that some day they might want to go professional.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Actually to us it made a great deal of difference, but on a small scale it will not.

However, for a few years we ran a unit (c250) of bottom bee space Nationals, a larger unit of top bee space Smiths, and a similar sized unit of top bee space Langstroths.

The difference in pace of working would, superficially be very little, BUT in the real world of teams in the field the difference was that you got between 20 and 40% MORE colonies worked with the top bee space hives than with the bottom bee space ones. This would be in part due to the amount of cleaning and scraping required with bottom bee space. (Frames etc MUST sit flush and be all cleaned underneath so the crown board etc sit down with the proper seal) AND the fact that the National is just a more awkward and slower box to work.

Slower because of the increased scraping and cleaning, the increased number of hiding places for queens when trying to find them, and even the fact you got one row less of this gear on the truck due to the dead space caused by the thicker front and back walls and ran an increased risk of having to return to base for more equipment.

After a few seasons of increasing frustration at extra costs (more man hours and marginally more truck time) to run Nationals they were punted off to another beekeeper.

In some countries the Langstroth is run bottom bee space. Makes compatibility something you have to be very careful with, and some of the poly makers make them with half bee space top and bottom. A real menace if you buy the wrong gear.

FWIW, it will make little difference in a small or amateur unit. Our budget is 6mins for all purposes per colony, so even 40% extra is only about 2.5 mins..........just adds up to a lot at the end of the day. Over say 60 hives done by one of our beekeepers it adds up to 2.5 hours wasted, at 9.00/hr....£22.50...per beekeeper per day. Over our whole unit and our active management season it adds £18000 to our costs for no extra production were we to be using TBS Nationals. Small things soon add up, an important point for anyone starting out and thinking that some day they might want to go professional.

Thanks for taking the time to explain that from the point of view of a bee farmer.

For my part, I've been keeping bees for two years and have two colonies in home-made plywood 14x12 Nationals, all made with top bee space. The tutor on the first course I attended explained that, from his perspective, the advantage of top bees space was that you did not squash so many bees (with top bee space) when rebuilding the hive after an inspection. For me I think this has proved to be the case and is the only advantage I have seen of top bee space.

CVB

 

[itma]

... the difference was that you got between 20 and 40% MORE colonies worked with the top bee space hives than with the bottom bee space ones. This would be in part due to the amount of cleaning and scraping required with bottom bee space. (Frames etc MUST sit flush and be all cleaned underneath so the crown board etc sit down with the proper seal) AND the fact that the National is just a more awkward and slower box to work.
...

Would I be correct in thinking that you would have been using unframed QXs sitting directly on the frame topbars?
And your coverboards? Unless they too were sitting on the frames (as with Paynes standard coversheet), I can't see where any extra scraping or cleaning would come into play.

I had this idea that you were involved with the poly National design made by Swienty and retailed by CWJ. That hive is sold with an unframed flat plastic sheet QX and no coversheet/board at all (supposedly not needed because of the roof design).
Bizarrely, the new version (with frame rails!) doesn't have proper bottom beespace - specifically above the frame lugs, which IS going to lead to extra work dealing with propolis. (Not having handled the original version, I don't know whether this is a new or pre-existing quirk.)



I am not sure that bbs is necessarily significantly slower to work than tbs.
However, I am pretty certain that getting the details right - like proper beespace and beespace-framed QXs - can make a much bigger difference.

 

[itma]

I used to have many Smith hives years ago which are top bee space. Crown boards are easier to place and I don't think you get as much brace comb between box's. I now use national hives and top bee space hives are certainly easier to make. Other than that I don't think there is much difference in either.

This was the comment that I was adressing previously.

Getting brace comb between boxes is a matter of whether or not the beespace is the correct dimension and NOT a matter of whether the hive has its (proper) beespace at top or bottom of each box.

Secondly, Smiths are designed to be easier to construct than Nationals.
And the difference has naff-all to do with top or bottom beespace. It has to do with the frame lug length, and the construction detailing required by the use of long lugs on National frames.
Yes, certainly Smiths are easier to homebrew than Nationals - but that isn't to do with the Smith being top beespace!

 

[Firefly]

Because without the rim, the QX contacts the bottom of the frames in the box above.
And any bees in the way get squashed.
Without you even knowing, let alone seeing and trying to do something about it.

It you insist on using an unframed QX on a BBS hive, at least you can see the bees at risk of squashing (bbs - under the QX) and act accordingly.

OK - thanks for explaining.

 

[jonnybeegood]

This was the comment that I was adressing previously.

Getting brace comb between boxes is a matter of whether or not the beespace is the correct dimension and NOT a matter of whether the hive has its (proper) beespace at top or bottom of each box.

Secondly, Smiths are designed to be easier to construct than Nationals.
And the difference has naff-all to do with top or bottom beespace. It has to do with the frame lug length, and the construction detailing required by the use of long lugs on National frames.
Yes, certainly Smiths are easier to homebrew than Nationals - but that isn't to do with the Smith being top beespace!

Surely bees will build bridge comb between boxes no matter what size the gap bee space or not? Its only natural for them to make one long comb, in the wild yes they have bee space between combs but they dont have combs split horizontally in the middle like we create in our hives.

 

[For want of a better word]

Framed queen excluders a must with top bee space hives

I use framed queen excluders on my BOTTOM BEE SPACE hives, with a 9mm bee space below the frame as the box on top is bottom bee space too... this gives the bees the ability to walk over the frames.

Strange my TBH seems to thrive without any bee space.

Obviously some thing to do with city beekeeping, I can see the conuburation of Plymouth in Devon from one of my Tamar Valley apiaries.... rarely go there ( Devonport Efford etc) now as it cost £1.50 to drive across the great grey green greasy Tamar river all set about with social housing... if one cares to use the Saltash bridge!
Things done different there !!!

Yeghes da

 

[itma]

Surely bees will build bridge comb between boxes no matter what size the gap bee space or not?

No.
When building boxes it is very important to get this dimension correct.
Otherwise you will always suffer from brace comb (or propolis) between boxes.