Views on LASI Queens at the end of the season

[B+.]

He gave a talk to the SBA convention, and I can't recall him making mad promises. To me, personally, he didn't say anything like that either - simply, it will be a mixture, which is true.

OK. I am not doubting anyones word but there does seem to be some confusion/disparity between what was said at one meeting and what was said at another.
I think the best thing to do is go by what is said on their website.

 

[Madge]

.
... Then you buy a £ 5000 highly hygienic mated queen. ...

Slow down! It's £500 (not £5000) for an open-mated queen that's been tested three times, and are only sold if they've removed more than 95% of freeze-killed brood.

 

[B+.]

Slow down! It's £500 (not £5000) for an open-mated queen that's been tested three times, and are only sold if they've removed more than 95% of freeze-killed brood.

Yes, I think we can excuse Finmans enthusiasm with the "0" key and put it down as a typo ;-)

The website actually says:

"These queens are reared from hygienic breeder colonies which we have tested using the freeze-killed brood bioassay and which are highly hygienic. After mating, queens are set up in hives at LASI and allowed to lay eggs so that 2 months later the workers in the colonies are daughters of the new queens. The colonies will then be tested 3 times using the freeze-killed brood removal bioassay. Only queens which test as highly hygienic (>95% removal of freeze-killed brood) will be supplied. These queens can be used as breeding stock by queen rearers and beekeeping associations!"

http://onlineshop.sussex.ac.uk/brow...d=1&modid=1&deptid=30&catid=144&prodvarid=192

At first, I read it as the mothers were tested for hygienic behaviour. Then I realised that the testing referred to the daughter queens. Perhaps it is worded badly, or, perhaps I just misread it. In any case, 3 tests performed 2 months apart (if that is what they mean) makes 6 months. Lets assume they had good weather and mated them in May (although much more likely in June/July). This means the queens have gone through at least one season, and probably two, before they are offered for sale. How much more life have they got in them? Realistically, if you get one more season out of them as queen mothers, you're doing well. So, who is likely to spend £500 per queen on breeding material that may not last more than a year? It would only be someone who intends producing a lot of daughters from her for sale or someone who intends to use her for further research. Is she worthy of further research? I don't know without knowing her pedigree and whether I am likely to encounter inbreeding depression in future generations.
Remember, it isn't just one queen you'd have to buy. Its a continual investment so you have unrelated breeding partners if you really want to maintain the line.
Quite honestly, I didn't even pay anywhere near that much for tested VSH stock (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3761), let alone hygienic queens (which I have had for years anyway).

 

[Finman]

.
You know, 0 means nothing, if you love bees.

 

[Finman]

.
Lunden's varroa resistant queen 500 € (Finland) http://www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/page8.html

Seems to be cartel prices

 

[B+.]

.
Lunden's varroa resistant queen 500 € (Finland) http://www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/page8.html

Seems to be cartel prices

You're always telling us how expensive things are here Finman. I have never paid that much for a queen

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have to agree with JBM
I was at the same talk and I distinctly remember Prof Ratnieks saying that the virgin queens, open mated in wherever they go would produce progeny that was highly hygienic. I seem to remember us discussing this here last year.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36670&page=5
Yes B+ post number 43
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36670&page=2
Salamagundy's post

Some info. Francis Ratnieks sent me in advance of his talk in Llangadog Community Centre next Saturday, 14th May, 10am - 1pm:

2. Daughter queens reared from a fully-hygienic breeder queen and then allowed to open mate and lay eggs head colonies that average 95.5% FKB-removal. This shows that hygienic colonies can be produced using open-mated queens.

The prof re-iterated this at the talk and nowhere did he say he was referring to his own apiaries only.

Now the website says:
Although virgin queens less often sold by queen rearers, we plan to do so to increase the supply of hygienic queens. In addition, there are two other potential advantages for a beekeeper: 1) they are cheaper; 2) by mating with local drones the resulting workers will have a combination of local genes from the drones and hygienic genes from the queen.

 

[Hivemaker.]

..

So, who is likely to spend £500 per queen on breeding material that may not last more than a year?

These queens can be used as breeding stock by queen rearers and beekeeping associations

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think he just changes his tune to suit the audience.
From years of studying body language I would describe his in one word - shifty

 

[Finman]

You're always telling us how expensive things are here Finman. I have never paid that much for a queen

I bought splended queens this summer 35€/bugg. Ari Seppälä's Buckfasts. 1500 hive owner.
From another beekeeper I bought 45€/bugg. They are Italians and mated in sea archipelago.
.

 

[Finman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by B+. View Post
So, who is likely to spend £500 per queen on breeding material that may not last more than a year?

**** That is all true. A normal beekeeper cannot do anything with that queen. If he takes daughter from that one queen, very soon he has inbreeding problem.

One hybrid generation is OK, but then in second generation hives have only 25% original genes -

But when you look Australian project's results, after 10 years perhaps 30 % of hives are highly hygienic in the village. what then happens, no one can know. Start was minimal, one queen.

*************

Quote:
Originally Posted by B+. View Post
These queens can be used as breeding stock by queen rearers and beekeeping associations

If a queen breeder is a real breeder and he knows, what he is doing, it is drone or daughter material. And it depends, how long the queen lives. She may die next week or die for nosema next autumn.

In assiosation they can take 100 daughter from the queen. And next summer all 100 hives in the village are sisters.
.
.

 

[B+.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by B+. View Post
These queens can be used as breeding stock by queen rearers and beekeeping associations

.

This is a quotation from the University of Sussex website and was enclosed within quotation marks and referenced. It has been incorrectly attributed to me in a post by Hivemaker.

 

[Hivemaker.]

It has been incorrectly attributed to me in a post by Hivemaker.

Rectified....

So, who is likely to spend £500 per queen on breeding material that may not last more than a year?

These queens can be used as breeding stock by queen rearers and beekeeping associations!"

 

[B+.]

Rectified....

Sorry Pete. I only meant to correct any possible misuanderstanding. No offence intended

 

[Hivemaker.]

Sorry Pete. I only meant to correct any possible misuanderstanding. No offence intended

No problem Paul, none taken, I should not of put the quote in as it was.

 

[Madge]

... In any case, 3 tests performed 2 months apart (if that is what they mean) makes 6 months. ...

He said three tests two months after she started laying - not three tests, two months apart.

Perhaps the first batch are over-wintered queens?

 

[Finman]

He said three tests two months after she started laying - not three tests, two months apart.

Perhaps the first batch are over-wintered queens?

Home page says that "we normally test queens 3-4 times".
.

 

[Madge]

I have to agree with JBM
I was at the same talk and I distinctly remember Prof Ratnieks saying that the virgin queens, open mated in wherever they go would produce progeny that was highly hygienic. I seem to remember us discussing this here last year.

...Salamagundy's post

...
2. Daughter queens reared from a fully-hygienic breeder queen and then allowed to open mate and lay eggs head colonies that average 95.5% FKB-removal. This shows that hygienic colonies can be produced using open-mated queens. [/B]

...

Now the website says:

...

Erica, perhaps you heard what you wanted to hear. The progeny will have local drone genes as well as the queen's - so they may show hygienic behaviour.

Point 2 refers to open-mated queens at their apiary.

I've not seen any changes on the website, and I've thoroughly studied it for a long time before I bought my five virgin queens.
Kitta

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Erica, perhaps you heard what you wanted to hear.

two of us heard the same, others in the room commented on the same over tea afterwards - checked my notes of the meeting earlier on - says the same.
Obviously you have shut your ears to the truth and have decided what you want to believe - make up what you want. I know what he said that day.

 

[B+.]

He said three tests two months after she started laying - not three tests, two months apart.

Perhaps the first batch are over-wintered queens?

How long between tests?
I would have more confidence in tests that were performed at least 3 weeks apart because these would demonstrate that it was not a fluke in one batch of workers. That is why I thought he meant 3 tests 2 months apart. However, I read something quite different in this post:
"We normally check each hive 3 or 4 times at intervals of 1-2 weeks."
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36670&page=2