Very grumpy hive

[andydormer]

Last summer I picked up a huge swarm (not from my own hives as queen was marked) and hurriedly put it in a brood box of foundation-less frames with bamboo skewers as guides (the only kit I had available as was in the middle of moving house) and left it at an out apiary.
Unfortunately the hive stand was disturbed / unlevelled in my absence causing the comb to go all over the place.

Autumn inspection was a very grumpy weak / light hive, few stings to gloves while fitting the mouse guard.
Varroa treated and winter fed with not much optimism for survival.

They did survive. Very grumpy, stingy and chasey (40m back to the car) at spring inspection.

Hive was moved 3hrs to apiary nearer new house. Didn't like being moved.

Very grumpy at all attempts to inspect, have stung me, my landlord, his farm workers (unprovoked), and today his son who was well over 50m and several buildings away from my apiary during my inspection.
Brood box is heavy with honey, but the one frame I have managed to remove from the middle of the box was mostly capped honey in top half and
empty lower half. ? queenless but why so strong? couldn't remove other frames due to crosscomb and couldn't see for the bees attacking veil as soon as the crown board is lifted. Tried with and without smoke or water sprayer on different occasions.
Fine weather while other hives were calm.

My 3 other hives can usually be inspected without a smoker.
I excuse an occasion of grumpyness in my bees as this normally correlates to supersedure or a bad weather forecast,
but this is just a grumpy hive and requires a requeen. No alternative out apiary, this hive needs new genetics.

Solution - New queen arrived today and I've made up a nuc from a nice hive for introduction.

I'm wondering the best way to combine the nuc and the grumpy hive?

Should I remove hive from stand, and replace with fresh floor, brood box with fresh frames, Newspaper, Brood box containing nuc, crownboard roof.
Tell landlord and family to stay indoors, park my car well away from the apiary.
Then shake grumpy bees onto ground so that flying bees will be return to lower bb and eventually merge through newspaper.

Is there a safer way to merge? That quickly gets these genes out of my apiary?

 

[andydormer]

And another question - how long will it take for the nuc to be ready to merge?

Thanks

 

[Erichalfbee]

You can unite the nuc to the other hive as soon as your new queen has laid a bit
BUT you have to kill the other queen. You didn’t say whether you managed to look for her.

 

[andydormer]

I've not been able to find the queen due to the comb being diagonal across several frames, so unable to inspect all frames individually, and the aggressiveness of the bees when I open the hive. Hence my thought to shake out the bees. This will cost me any emerging brood, if any, but the queen shouldn't find her way back home?
Or to be more sure of the queen not returning I could shake through a queen excluder - if the queen is seen I can dispatch her...

 

[Angry_Mob]

Shaker box: https://youtu.be/TW_FJTnhilg?t=889

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but the queen shouldn't find her way back home?

She can fly, just like any other bee, unless she's clipped.

 

[andydormer]

Shaker box - thanks for that.
She's unclipped and although not at her mating flight apiary I guess she could follow her bee's pheromones home. Thanks for that thought.


I'm thinking if I set up a new brood box and shake them into it 'shaker box' style. If I find a queen - great she dispatched immediately and could filter out her drones - if not (ie hive was queenless) I can doublecheck by adding a frame of fresh eggs from good hive and leave a few days - if queen cells are drawn then they are queenless and ready to merge with the nuc.

Queen cells will be from a good hive and can be used in my nucs for increase

Thanks for your help

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well let us know how you get on.
We don’t get enough updates. It would be interesting.

 

[Swarm]

Soapy water and spray the lot. If you were remote there are options but a family hiding indoors while you sort out vile bees is bad enough but takes 'stay indoors' a bit far.

 

[andydormer]

An update as requested:
New queen was purchased from Becky's Bees and installed in a 3 frame nuc a week ago on Thursday.
Nuc was placed on hive stand next to grumpy colony.
Even my shadow passing the grumpy hive entrance caused defensive bees to enter attack mode.

Any other apiary visits for other hives have avoided the grumy hive's stand.


Checked the nuc on Wednesday and queen had been released and was walking the frames, blue marker already rubbed off.


Briefly checked nuc again today and queen was on the first frame I lifted,
there but no eggs obvious yet on this outer frame, very gentle colony.
Grumpy hive didn't like me checking its neighbour, so nuc inspection was stopped early. Could see guard bees flying straight from grumpy hive entrance at my veil.

So I lifted the grumpy hive to an empty hive stand 10m away and replaced it with a fresh floor and BB with new frames for the flying bees to return to.

Only one stinger penetrated my double glove (latex glove over marigolds) but had lots of stingers left in the suit - neck and knees. Bloody hot work as had a thick cotton boiler suit (welding grade) on under my beesuit. Glad I had a baseball cap and boiler suit collar raised to protect my head.

Lots of angry bees flying around the apiary while they got used to the idea of an artificial swarm.
I retreated home for lunch.

After lunch I will return and 'shaker box' the bees in the old grumpy hive in the hope of finding the queen, before uniting the nuc above the new brood box using newspaper.

I'll update again later...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It ould be better to get the nuc established first, it takes a while for the colony to fully accept the queen - you also want her to start laying and possibly have sealed brood before uniting

 

[pargyle]

You haven't solved your problem yet ... what is your next move .?.. you have a grumpy colony with (we must assume) a queen in residence... they are still going to be grumpy ... plus you now have a box of foragers (who come from a grumpy hive) who now are queenless and potentially even more bad tempered ? You really do have to find your grumpy colony queen and despatch her asap. I can't say I'm enamoured at having grumpy drones in my area ... fortunately at present I have no virgin queens looking for a mate but if it happens I'll be telling her to stay well away from your boys ...

 

[andydormer]

I agree Pargyle, I don't want grumpy drones either, my other hives (a different genetic line) are lovely and gentle and I'm intending to do some queen rearing later in the season. I've done what I can as quick as I can to correct this problem - buying in a queen rather than waiting to raise my own. Bleeding off the flying bees to make a shaker box easier. No extra time to establish the nuc, today had to be good enough, so united the new queen nuc with the flying bees. Hope she'll settle them down quickly.

As for finding the grumpy queen this afternoon - Lifting one frame out of the grumpy hive my hands were immediately attacked - stings through gloves (leather + marigolds). Shook the frame through the shaker box- stings to legs. Lifted second frame - couldn't see what I was doing for bees in my veil - stings to ear and back of head. Closed up the hive and retreated to safety.

So I've come home to get my garden sprayer and will be dispatching the grumpy hive (queen and residents) this evening.

 

[pargyle]

I've had to deal with a hive like that - fortunately not one of mine and nowhere near our area so I know exactly how disconcerting it is.. The one's I had to deal with were followers and very persistent .. I got stung taking my suit off nearly 50 yards away after waiting for 10 minutes for them to give up.

I dislike killing bees but in your circumstances I won't criticise you for it. They sound absolutely awful.

I hope they accept your new queen - viscious bees have form for not accepting new queens .. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Not a fun day by the sounds of it.

Good luck, let us know how you get on ..

 

[andydormer]

Went back to the apiary last night and the brood box containing the grumpy queen was given a thorough soaking with the sprayer to dispatch those that were in there.

Had a look at the combs and luckily only a little drone brood in there (unhatched) and no sign of any queen cells so her genetic line has ended. Outer frames were full of honey which will now not be edible due to the soaking. Will use my steam extractor for the wax the next time we get a rainy day (sunny days promote robbing for those that haven't tried this method).


I checked on the apiary after lunch today, a few of the fruit pickers had received stings earlier this morning, but when I walked in front of the hives they all seemed back to their usual calm. I didn't touch the newly united hive (grumpy flyers under a new queen nuc) but standing in front of the hive, casting shadow on the entrance, and my movements didn't cause me to be bombarded or chased. I'll take that as an improvement.

Hopefully the new queen will be ok, I won't be able to check her till the end of the week due to work commitments, but if I give her a week I will hopefully see eggs in the upper brood box, no eggs in the lower brood box, and give the bees time to calm down. I'll also measure up for some screening mesh, to direct bees up away from the fruit pickers.

I think in the future, any swarm I collect will be promptly requeened with one of my own girls of known temperament .

 

[pargyle]

Strangely, in our location, swarms on the whole are very good. I've picked up a lot over the years and I've never had an agressive one ... Luck of the draw I suspect.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Strangely, in our location, swarms on the whole are very good. I've picked up a lot over the years and I've never had an agressive one ... Luck of the draw I suspect.

Same here usually but .........
A swarm we picked up at the end of May last year gave us a lot of honey and were fairly placid. There were our biggest colony in April so we decided to Demaree them. AS they've got bigger there have been more and more bees in the air and yesterday Stan got a lot of stings moving three brood frames up so she has to go.
Inspecting the colony next door, another swarm.... there wasn't a single bee flying. Stan asked what's the matter with them? Are they dead?

 

[andydormer]

An update:
It's been 2 weeks since the grumpy hive was requeened. A reminder of the setup: Flying bees from the grumpy hive populated the bottom brood box, above that were three layers of newspaper, plastic queen excluder, then a brood box dummied down to contain the nuc which was recently made up but did have eggs from the newly purchased queen.

Last weekend I lifted the crown board and only a few bees came towards me, no stings, the rest were walking calmly across the frame tops. My hands hadn't recovered from all the stings the week before so I decided a calm hive was good enough and closed them up again assuming the new queen had done her job. I got on with inspecting the other 3 hives and nuc - all ok.

Today I lift the crown board of grumpy hive and they were back to being grumpy, no stings but very in my face and all over my gloves while I lifted the first frame of foundation which remained untouched, second frame had stores, no eggs. Looked at the third frame to see brood and a queen cell. That'll explain their mood, and the sun hadn't hit the hive yet so that too may be an excuse.

A few bees followed me to my car, but nothing like previous occasions, and after standing in the shade for 5 mins they lost interest.

So it looks like they didn't accept the new queen (shame as the purchased queen did look good), she obviously needed more time to establish the nuc before combining. But if the queen cell is successful then that will be good genes not grumpy ones - so hopefully not a complete waste of money.

I thought about dropping in a frame of eggs from another hive, but none of my other hives had any eggs or larva! One queen was sighted in her brood box, two other hives had no sign of HRH, eggs or larva; and the nuc hasn't started laying yet (early days -queen was seen last weekend, lovely shape and colour).

Would the recent bad weather have caused this pause in laying? Don't think I've lost a swarm. It's also messed up my queen rearing plans as had hoped to be grafting this week.

Pargyle - do you know if anyone local is doing any grafting? - I may require a few QC's if they have spare.

 

[pargyle]

Pargyle - do you know if anyone local is doing any grafting? - I may require a few QC's if they have spare.

I wish you had posted this an hour or two sooner:

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=710926#post710926 # Post 27751.

I've just destroyed 7 queen cells !