Ventilation

[Tremyfro]

I think because of the obvious that has not been noted here is that water vapor will condensate on the cooler walls. Always, if walls are colder than the hive temperature. in that respect, I doubt whether the fanning is to circulate moist air outside of the hive. more to move it around in order to evacuate super saturated air away from the nectar so it can condensate on the walls. Any scientific proof to support my thesis? I have not checked but if there is, I am sure someone will dig it out .

I wrote a lovely post last night and then our internet went off...so it was lost
As we know cool air won't hold as much water vapour as warm air. When warm air with a high level of water vapour hits a cooler surface some of the vapour will condense. This water will run down the hive walls. So I agree with you....the movement of the heavily vapour laden air within the hive will remove moisture. The bees don't need to pull in air from outside the hive. So on cooler evenings ...the walls are cooler and will remove moisture from the hive more efficiently...so the bees don't need to work so hard to mature the honey.
So closing off the OMF doesn't affect the honey ripening ...as my bees have shown.
Thanks Novice...or not quite so Novice.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q='Wild+Honey+Bees+of+the+Glaslyn'&l=1

Found an easier to read version of it - https://view.publitas.com/welsh-beekeeper/welsh-beekeeper-autumn-2015/page/28-29

CVB

 

[user 6228]

I think because of the obvious that has not been noted here is that water vapor will condensate on the cooler walls. Always, if walls are colder than the hive temperature. in that respect, I doubt whether the fanning is to circulate moist air outside of the hive. more to move it around in order to evacuate super saturated air away from the nectar so it can condensate on the walls. Any scientific proof to support my thesis? I have not checked but if there is, I am sure someone will dig it out .

No there is no paper I have found showing the above process happens in a Honey bee nest or even demonstrating it is feasible in a honeybee nest (looking for at least 4 years).
However the thermal process you describe does take place in almost every dehumidifier

 

[Finman]

I think because of the obvious that has not been noted here is that water vapor will condensate on the cooler walls. Always, if walls are colder than the hive temperature. in that respect, I doubt whether the fanning is to circulate moist air outside of the hive. more to move it around in order to evacuate super saturated air away from the nectar so it can condensate on the walls. Any scientific proof to support my thesis? I have not checked but if there is, I am sure someone will dig it out .

After my 54 year in beekeeping such has not happened. You surely see if water drills from hive during nectar flow. But it has never happened.

Even when it is cold and there is winter feeding in the hive, no condensation happen in the hive because all surfaces are hot.

My bees bring sometimes 5 - 7 kg honey a day and and 50 kg in a week. It means that they propably dry up another 50 kg water from nectar. There must be a river on the hive floor, if it condensates

I have seen moisture on floor , but not pools.

 

[Finman]

.
When you want scientic proofs, why don't you read researches how bees control temperature in the hive. IT is said there.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

After my 54 year in beekeeping such has not happened. You surely see if water drips from hive during nectar flow. But it has never happened.

Even when it is cold and there is winter feeding in the hive, no condensation happen in the hive because all surfaces are hot.

My bees bring sometimes 5 - 7 kg honey a day and and 50 kg in a week. It means that they probably dry up another 50 kg water from nectar. There must be a river on the hive floor, if it condensates

I have seen moisture on floor , but not pools.

If my opinion is of any consequence (I'm not an experienced beekeeper) and if Finman's figures are anywhere new accurate, I think the condensation theory is not sound - it would mean roughly 20 litres of water dripping out of the hive every day of a flow. I'm sure THAT would be noticed.

It has to go out of the enclosure as a gas - water vapour - but even that is one hell of a gaseous exchange for the bees to manage, but manage it they do, somehow.

CVB

 

[Tremyfro]

...thought I had it cracked...duh!
Perhaps...the bees suck up the nectar and regurgitate several times...so perhaps they extract some of the water and poo it out away from the hive???
I'm sure that must be a fairly efficient way of doing it combined with moving the warm, vapour laden air away from the honey.

 

[Finman]

.
I am sure what they do. IT is not a mystery and you can see them if you look.

IT is described in university documents. But as said, you can see it yourself.
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And if university staff write carbage they get quite quickly a foot figure to their arse.
.
In forums a leading misleader can write what ever, and he even believes his stories.

 

[user 6228]

If my opinion is of any consequence (I'm not an experienced beekeeper) and if Finman's figures are anywhere new accurate, I think the condensation theory is not sound - it would mean roughly 20 litres of water dripping out of the hive every day of a flow. I'm sure THAT would be noticed.

It has to go out of the enclosure as a gas - water vapour - but even that is one hell of a gaseous exchange for the bees to manage, but manage it they do, somehow.

CVB

Its probably a both rather than one or the other. Then what they do in a real tree is a complete unknown...

and the liquid content they appear to dump on my car is not insignificant if you mulitply it by the area surrounding the hives

 

[Michael Palmer]

So, did you ever use a little smoke on a strong colony that is fanning well? Just a little whiff on the side of the solid bottom, where the bees are fanning in a group....facing out. Of course, the smoke wafts away from the entrance. But give a little whiff to the other side of the solid bottom. In it goes....until the bees realize what's happening, and then out comes the smoke.

So, the bees draw air into one side of the solid bottom, up and through the hive, and down and out the other side of the solid bottom. Good enough for the bees, good enough for me.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Like he said............

 

[Tremyfro]

So, did you ever use a little smoke on a strong colony that is fanning well? Just a little whiff on the side of the solid bottom, where the bees are fanning in a group....facing out. Of course, the smoke wafts away from the entrance. But give a little whiff to the other side of the solid bottom. In it goes....until the bees realize what's happening, and then out comes the smoke.

So, the bees draw air into one side of the solid bottom, up and through the hive, and down and out the other side of the solid bottom. Good enough for the bees, good enough for me.

I can see that would work but as entrances are reduced right down for wasps....how would they manage to circulate the air with only one little entrance?

 

[Finman]

I can see that would work but as entrances are reduced right down for wasps....how would they manage to circulate the air with only one little entrance?

Have you solid floor or mesh floor?

it is your job to give them a right size entrance. You cannot ask from others what it should be. No one knows about you hives.

As you see, they get air. Otherwise they would be dead.

You see the need of ventilatiom from the number of ventilating bees.

You cannot set up ventilation according wasps.
..
Yes, I have now lots of wasps. I have killed them thousands.

This discussion has become so out of space that soon no one knows what to do with hives.

It has not been any problems with ventilation but now guys are so deeply in trouples that they want even science to help them.

 

[Finman]

.
Why honey dry up?

Why loundry dry up in drying room? Because warm air can hold more water than colder air.

Then humidity of air? ... At night it is 100% and by day 50% during few hours.

When we have a table of top moisture in air, in paractice water content is lower..


A rough table how maximum water content depends on temperature. Beehive has 35 C when nectar flow is at top.

OUT
10C .... 10g
20C.... 20 g
30 C... 30 g
Hive 35 C..... hive air...40g
40 C.... 50g

So, in 20 C day temp (peak) and with 50% moisture incoming air has 10 g water in cubic metre.

Hive air has 80% humidity, if I remember right, so 30 g/m3, the incoming air can catch four times more water from hive.

Ventilation catches 20g moisture in cubig metre. 2000 g in 100 cubic metre.

In 24 hours = 4 m3 air changing /hour.


Then this hive is big, about 6-8 langstroth boxes which need to remove that much water, about 1 litre/hour.

But how long the water take work to remove?? Once I had hives on rape field, The nectar was very moist because of night mist and bees started to forage it after midday. They foraged hives full in 2 weeks, but it took 3 weeks that they capped the honey.

It depends on weathers, what is nectar moisture and how dry is weather.

On average rape nectar has 66% sugar, but in moist conditions it has 15%.


.

 

[Tremyfro]

That was interesting Finman. My hives have solid floors. They are capping the honey...so I guess they are getting rid of the extra moisture....
Fascinating though...how they do it...no matter what hive type/ floor type we provide.

 

[Erichalfbee]

My hives have solid floors.

Ah.....do they?
Are they the long hives?

 

[Finman]

That was interesting Finman. My hives have solid floors. They are capping the honey...so I guess they are getting rid of the extra moisture....
Fascinating though...how they do it...no matter what hive type/ floor type we provide.

Bees cap the honey when they get enough nectar. They do not cap half full cells even if it is dry enough. They need 3 supers for honey
- one for capped honey
- two to rippen nectar.

If they are short of space, they store into brood frames.

 

[Tremyfro]

Ah.....do they?
Are they the long hives?

Well my Flow Hive has a wooden floor 'cos I started it before the Flow arrived. So the base, brood and roof are a cheap langstroth. The long hives have large celotex blocks fitting under the OMF and held in place with the inspection board. So not completely solid...I think there will be some air movement around the edges. I take them off for vaping and I bought a kit for doing a sugar roll instead of natural varroa drop...which I had found to be misleading. The wind here can be so strong it blows the inspection boards out!
Whilst the 15 days of vaping takes place...I strap the inspection boards in place...otherwise they end up across the fields!

 

[Swarm]

Talking about 'Tree nests' there is a splendid example here...
https://www.facebook.com/loomberahgold/
Son in law did a huge cut out.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thought I'd revisit this: just been for a wander around the home apiary - can't sit still for long when my back's playing up, and I love being amongst the hives when they're full on honey ripening.
All OMF with underfloor entrances, but just held the back of my hand near the entrance on some of the hives and can feel a distinct movement of air being forced out of the hive (only on one side of the entrances though)