Ventilation

[wessexmario]

I refer you to post #02 - it was going well up until that point.

it is blatantly obvious even to someone with an IQ of a cornflake that bees (for whatever objective) actively move air around the hive.

The original question was does an OMF have any advantages over a solid floor or vice versa

I note you took all of 2 minutes to try to defend an indefensible position there JBM. I wasn't addressing you but if the coat fits...

I know what the original question was and what bees do with their wings, I inferred that in my post. I was adding information that might have contributed to the debate.

Instead of continually trying to score points and be a smart-arse all the time, why don't you use the brains and experience that you obviously have instead of leaving them at the breakfast table when you come online?

 

[Finman]

I ask as I was reading something about laminar flow and the way bees ventilate and it being rendered ineffective if the bottom of the box is open.

And why it ventilate? Many reasons to ventilate.

.
For example if out temp is 40C, and need must keep brood area in 36C, the system must be so that cooled Air does not escape. Just bees and brood makes heat onkin se.

Bees carry water inside, and respiration cools the interior. That is why they ventilate. That in Australia. Wild bees can live only near water pools.

Then in heavy nectar flow bees dry nectar to honey, and in abundant flow they stop partly working and make a cluster outdoors. Drying respiration keeps the hive cool.

In zero temperature in the middle Winter I have seen a bee fanning in the upper entrance because they want the air to be exhanged. Biggest lack of oxygen is in the middle or cluster.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I note you took all of 2 minutes to try to defend an indefensible position there JBM. I wasn't addressing you but if the coat fits...

I know what the original question was and what bees do with their wings, I inferred that in my post. I was adding information that might have contributed to the debate.

Instead of continually trying to score points and be a smart-arse all the time, why don't you use the brains and experience that you obviously have instead of leaving them at the breakfast table when you come online?

by what I've heard on the grqpevine of your 'beekeeping' expertise it would be better if you sat back and learnt instead of sniping from the sidelines

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I ask as I was reading something about laminar flow and the way bees ventilate and it being rendered ineffective if the bottom of the box is open.

Something on the same lines came to my mind when you asked the question - the model of how coal mines moved clean air around underground using doors and the importance of manipulating air movement using brattices and the like.
A bit like on here really - things would work a lot better if some would keep their trap shut

 

[Tremyfro]

It's them using their wings to mature the honey - observe and rfead is my suggestion

....but is it.....as you will have noted and observed,
that on cooler evenings.....even when on a strong flow...the noise is not so much....so why is that?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

because the air being moved into the hive is cooler and less moist thus no need for so much circulation.

 

[user 6228]

Can bees ventilate a hive more effectively with a solid floor and a small entrance or with an OMF?
Any ideas?
Please

This is very complex environment before you add the behaviour of the bees. I would give an environment as similar to a tree nest and leave the bees to sort it out . But a hive is so different to a tree nest it's difficult to.predict outcomes reliably.

For me it's work in progress

 

[user 6228]

Can bees ventilate a hive more effectively with a solid floor and a small entrance or with an OMF?
Any ideas?
Please

This is very complex environment before you add the behaviour of the bees. I would give an environment as similar to a tree nest and leave the bees to sort it out . But a hive is so different to a tree nest it's difficult to.predict outcomes reliably.

For me it's work in progress

 

[chrisb]

my hive ventilation system is working

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Honeybeesuite

To add to the debate, I offer this article by Rusty Burlew where she grapples with physics to try to explain ventilation of the hive. Most of it makes sense but there remain some unanswered questions:
http://honeybeesuite.com/physics-for-beekeepers-how-does-ventilation-increase-honey-production/

CVB

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is very complex environment before you add the behaviour of the bees. I would give an environment as similar to a tree nest and leave the bees to sort it out . But a hive is so different to a tree nest it's difficult to.predict outcomes reliably.

For me it's work in progress

Yes thanks Derek I don't suppose it's simple. The thing is that in a tree the bees have more room? A hive box isn't the same. It's full. It is full of frames. At least in a tree the bees start somewhere in a hole and grow into it

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Yes thanks Derek I don't suppose it's simple. The thing is that in a tree the bees have more room? A hive box isn't the same. It's full. It is full of frames. At least in a tree the bees start somewhere in a hole and grow into it

One thing about this is hive entrances are either (unreduced) much larger or (reduced) very much smaller than bees choose in nature. I witnessed this at a bait box which had the entrance block in (set to "wide"). The scouts nibbled and nibbled at it and eventually went somewhere else. I think Seeley's ideal entrance is 10-30 sq cm.

 

[Swarm]

The Welsh Beekeeper, Autumn 2015. 'Wild Honeybees of the Glaslyn'. Some very interesting facts in this article from five 'actual' tree nests.

 

[thenovice]

....but is it.....as you will have noted and observed,
that on cooler evenings.....even when on a strong flow...the noise is not so much....so why is that?

I think because of the obvious that has not been noted here is that water vapor will condensate on the cooler walls. Always, if walls are colder than the hive temperature. in that respect, I doubt whether the fanning is to circulate moist air outside of the hive. more to move it around in order to evacuate super saturated air away from the nectar so it can condensate on the walls. Any scientific proof to support my thesis? I have not checked but if there is, I am sure someone will dig it out .

 

[Erichalfbee]

The Welsh Beekeeper, Autumn 2015. 'Wild Honeybees of the Glaslyn'. Some very interesting facts in this article from five 'actual' tree nests.

Thanks. I'll go look at that

 

[charlievictorbravo]

The Welsh Beekeeper, Autumn 2015. 'Wild Honeybees of the Glaslyn'. Some very interesting facts in this article from five 'actual' tree nests.

Any chance of a scan of the article - I'm not a WBKA member.

CVB

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Any chance of a scan of the article - I'm not a WBKA member.

CVB

http://lmgtfy.com/?q='Wild+Honey+Bees+of+the+Glaslyn'&l=1

 

[charlievictorbravo]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q='Wild+Honey+Bees+of+the+Glaslyn'&l=1

Thanks for that - unfortunately something has happened to page 2 of the .pdf with part of the table over-printing on the text below so the table is not easy to read.

Interesting use of propolis by the bees to change the entrance shape/arrangements in tree 1.

CVB

 

[Finman]

Yes thanks Derek I don't suppose it's simple.

Hive ventilation is very simple because the beekeepers does not need to know much about it. Bees take care themselves despite of the beekeeper.

Mesh floor ventilation has 40 times bigger "oxygen opening". So I use solid floors. I do not want to waste bees energy in extra ventilation.


We have had for years debates about insulation and message has not reached many. I suppose that ventilation is as difficult to understand.

 

[Finman]

Interesting use of propolis by the bees to change the entrance shape/arrangements in tree 1.

CVB

Caucasian bees were eager to minimize their entrance with propolis in autumn. But with other bee races I have not met such. They try something, but do not get much ready. Only trials.