Varroa - rock and hard place

[boywonder]

Still a one-(14*12)-hive owner. I did get up to 4 colonies last summer, before a combination of uniting and then bad management (having lost one of two hives over Winter to isolation starvation). You live and learn.

The surviving hive is extremely strong. It had masses of stores going into the Winter, and the girls are now piling in the pollen, are on all frames, with BIAS on at least 6/7 frames (including a not overly concerning amount of drone brood (5%??)). In fact, I was considering supering, given that the OSR is coming into flower, too... Very healthy indeed ... today ... BUT, the current Varroa drop is massively concerning to me.

I know I need to keep the inspection board in for a longer period, but, based on the drop in the last couple of days, I am running at at least 30 mites a day.

By all measures, I think I need to treat. Soon.

I did treat in Autumn with Apiguard, and there were, at the time, moderate levels of DWV. The drop then was simply staggering. I estimated over 2,000 mites dropped from this hive over the course of that treatment. Nonetheless, I did not treat (e.g. with Oxalic) in Winter, as I want to avoid that, if I can.

However, I now feel between a rock and a hard place. Should I treat now (assuming I am beyond the level that an icing sugar dusting would be efective)? If so, would MAQS be a good option? I do appreciate, of course, that - irrespective of the effect on laying - I would then also risk losing my Queen.

Thoughts / advice welcome. Thanks.

 

[Finman]

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The mite drop is huge. 2000 mites and 80% use to be under brood cappings.

It is very soon that normal workers can not emerge any more from combs.

To get rid off mite gang it is better to take all brood frames off and then treat bees with trickling.

3 weeks formic acid treatment is possible too, but I bet that you will not get many normal bees from brood cells.

 

[madasafish]

If you don't treat, you will likely have a very big colony which will then collapse in 3-4 weeks. Seen it before..

 

[Finman]

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If you don't treat, you will likely have a very big colony which will then collapse in 3-4 weeks. Seen it before..

I am quite sure about that.

What I think is that it is better to kill mites at once, and not during next brood cycle 3 weeks.

Mite load is huge, 10 times too much. Bees which are now in the hive, are able to rear some amount of brood. (who knows)

I bet that those bees. which are no in brood cells. are badly violated. And mites, which arises from brood cells, makes more harm.

When you kill all brood, and then all free mites, next brood will be quite free from mites.

Brood right hive is very difficult to treat. That is why it is better to make a harsh trick. Instead of long, painfull treament you get at same time healhy brood and you have new bees 3 weeks.

 

[B+.]

I did treat in Autumn with Apiguard, and there were, at the time, moderate levels of DWV. The drop then was simply staggering. I estimated over 2,000 mites dropped from this hive over the course of that treatment. Nonetheless, I did not treat (e.g. with Oxalic) in Winter, as I want to avoid that, if I can.

I am amazed that your mite count was so high. I haven't treated for varroa since the mid-90's and have been selecting for varroa resistence. In my worst colony, I went from 43 to 76 mites. My best went from 4 to 5 after two weeks natural mite drop with one more week to go.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I estimated over 2,000 mites dropped from this hive over the course of that treatment. Nonetheless, I did not treat (e.g. with Oxalic) in Winter, as I want to avoid that, if I can.
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I prefer to avoid losing my colonies due to varroa infestation, with a hefty drop like that I would definitely done something over the winter - but it's pointless lifting one's petticoats now as my great grandmother would say. it's obvious you need to take some kind of positive action now

Should I treat now (assuming I am beyond the level that an icing sugar dusting would be efective)?

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Icing sugar is never effective - unless you're decorating Christmas cakes.

would MAQS be a good option? I do appreciate, of course, that - irrespective of the effect on laying - I would then also risk losing my Queen.

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Catch 22 really - risk losing queen or risk losing whole colony. MAQS is better than nothing - at least if you do lose the queen there's a chance of getting a replacement.
He might be as mad as a boxful of bullfrogs on a hotplate but Finny has a point - get rid of brood and OA (how much brood actually is there? frames full of brood or frames with some brood on?) if they're going on the OSR they'll soon make up for lost time.
Can someone help you with an oxalic vapouriser?
If push comes to shove, forget the crop get Apiguard on. or, (and I hate to say this) what's pyrethroid resistance like in your area?

 

[Nige.Coll]

If vapourising oa would help you aren't far away from me I have a home made one you can borrow . You will have to lift the hive onto it and treat through the omf but it works. You would need to treat them a few times, plenty of instructions on here about it.
The offer is there if you need it. Might have a spare battery if it's still ok.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I did treat in Autumn with Apiguard, and there were, at the time, moderate levels of DWV. The drop then was simply staggering. I estimated over 2,000 mites dropped from this hive over the course of that treatment. Nonetheless, I did not treat (e.g. with Oxalic) in Winter, as I want to avoid that, if I can.

However, I now feel between a rock and a hard place.

You do need to do something, and fast. Your choice as to what you do from a number of options people will offer.

Temps are unlikely to be consistently high enough over consecutive 24 hour periods to use MAQS or a thymol treatment, but you could use Apivar, which you can get from the Bee Vet in Devon or Bridge Vets in Dumfries. It needs to be in place for 6-8 weeks, covering a minimum of two complete brood cycles.

You could shook swarm, it should be just about warm enough to do it. Use OA asap afterwards, perhaps, to mop up the phoretic mites?

Icing sugar is never effective - unless you're decorating Christmas cakes.
True, but sugar rolling is a way of monitoring for varroa so the whole colony could be rolled in the stuff. No idea how effective it would be, and I'm not sure I would try it if I had only one colony which was in need of urgent treatment.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well done - good call!

 

[MuswellMetro]

i think the last autumn weather was not hot enough for a good kill rate for varroa , and apiguard is so temperature dependant in the UK, i alway use oxalic ivapour in winter as my main treatment

anactdocaly i would say from Oxalic vaporising drops in December broodless period that Apiguard put on my hives at august BH monday gave about a 70% kill rate, and bayvarol strips (after 5 year lay off) a 95% kill rate and Amitraz (vet prescribed Apivar) 95%+

so your 2000 drop could have left a considerable varroa presence in your hives if it gave only a 70% kill rate like mine

then the long warm late autumn and heavy ivy flow would have allowed extreme biulding of the 30% remaining varroa after treatment

i have heard of 50 and 80% losses in parts of my county, i suspect all related to low varroa kills due to poor weather in ealry autumn

even you staravation bees were more than likley due to high varroa loads reducing the viable emerging Bees, so the cluster becomes too small to move

my advice SHOOK SWARM and feed feed feed, or at least cull all the drone brood and Oxalic treat as per prevoius posts

 

[Chris B]

If the colony is strong enough, maybe make a small queenright nuc as a queen protector and treat with something like Apiguard. Treat the remainder of the colony with MAQS. After 1 week reunite after disposing of any sealed brood in the queenright nuc.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Providing they are still strong in bee numbers you could remove any sealed brood, and leave any frames with eggs and small larvae, ones that were at least three days away from being capped, if there are just a few sealed cells among mainly open brood, then rake these out, then treat with oxalic vapour straight away, the same evening, not trickle method.

Alternatively just treat them three times five day apart with oxalic vapour.

 

[B+.]

I did treat in Autumn with Apiguard, and there were, at the time, moderate levels of DWV. The drop then was simply staggering. I estimated over 2,000 mites dropped from this hive over the course of that treatment. Nonetheless, I did not treat (e.g. with Oxalic) in Winter, as I want to avoid that, if I can.

Have you done a natural mite drop this year? I wouldn't want to give advice based on an estimate last year

 

[Hivemaker.]

...

Have you done a natural mite drop this year? I wouldn't want to give advice based on an estimate last year

I know I need to keep the inspection board in for a longer period, but, based on the drop in the last couple of days, I am running at at least 30 mites a day.

 

[Finman]

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Oh sorry, that 2000 mites was in last autumn.

But 30 mites drop in a day is huge.

Now in a month 1000 mites natural dead rate!

 

[B+.]

I know I need to keep the inspection board in for a longer period, but, based on the drop in the last couple of days, I am running at at least 30 mites a day.

Ooops! How did I miss that? I must get my eyes checked....too much staring down a microscope, I think! mea culpa!

Do you have open mesh floors on throughout the season? I think a lot of mites fall through the screen without having to do anything.

You have plenty of advice already if you have solid floors

 

[boywonder]

Thanks to everyone for comments, advice and input. Clearly I need to act now ... I have just returned from a day in London to find the inspection board with debris from the last 24h as per the photos attached. There are more than 55 Varroa mites in this.

Thanks Nige for the offer of OA sublimation ... As a novice, I would really like to understand what benefit this gives me, over MAQS. I ask only ask only as I bought some MAQS as a contingency recently (in the freezer at present), so could deploy quickly, and I understand that the formic acid will leach through the wax cappings and also treat the brood......, quickly.

Shook swarm and related methods seem drastic, if there is another way. The hive, incidentally, has an OMF.

Any more advice welcome. Cheers. (BTW ... Having some probs with the photos - will try and post separately)

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[BeeJayBee]

... I bought some MAQS as a contingency recently (in the freezer at present), so could deploy quickly, and I understand that the formic acid will leach through the wax cappings and also treat the brood......, quickly.

You may be able to deploy MAQS quickly, but it needs temperatures of between 10C and 20C to work properly. Night time temps are lower than that at the moment, so treatment may not be reliable although it would be better than nothing.
http://nodglobal.com/maqs-application/

Some comments last year suggested that two strips may be too much for a single national brood box, and you don't want to add extra space because the bees won't be able to heat it. One strip might be enough, but isn't what's recommended by the manufacturers.

The rider is that some say MAQS will kill diseased queens - you have no spare hive, you have no leeway.

Worker and drone kill level, in a colony with DWV, can be quite high which is distressing for the beekeeper so if you do go ahead and use it it's probably best to put the strips in place and walk away for three days.

But, really and truly, MAQS isn't the best thing to use now, temperatures are wrong.

A shook swarm may sound drastic, but it does work. It's actually over and done with fairly quickly and colonies build up well afterwards. You would need to feed, adding top insulation would help.

Have you ever seen a shook swarm done? Do you have a spare brood box, do you have anybody to help you?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Do you have a spare brood box, do you have anybody to help you?

Another brood box would not be needed in this instance.

 

[Finman]

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Shooh swarm is not needed. You just take brood off and kill mites.
Shake bees from brood frames into hive.