varroa floor

[bowlerbee]

Absolute newbie with a brood and a half colony in a national Hive, mesh floor and metal insert beneath it for varroa monitoring. I must have been asleep during the part of my beekeeping course which covered this, I don't understand what I should be doing for varroa monitoring, can anyone help please? The tray is in. I just cleaned it. It was damp, which I think is not good? Should I be leaving it out, except for varroa mite monitoring? If so - how do I do the monitoring? put the (vaseline coated) tray in for say 24 hours once a week, then take it out and count the mites? I have seen all the complicated stuff about mite drop x days etc - but couldn't find the basics.
Anyone?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Leave it out unless monitoring. You have a big colony needing to concentrate a lot of nectar. Can you imagine how much water vapour this will involve?
I monitor for 5/7 days; spray some one cal cooking spray on the insert to make it sticky. My monitoring trays do not seal the floor so that there is still some ventilation but I tend to avoid monitoring if it is really hot.

 

[wessexmario]

With a mesh floor in place, make sure that you don't have holes left in your cover board.
It's usual to have one or two holes on manufactured boards for the use of porter bee escapes or feeders. If they're not being used for those purposes, then cover the holes over with a piece of ply or slate, otherwise you'll have a permanent draft through the hive that may chill the brood.

 

[bowlerbee]

Ok, thanks Eric. the tray had been in for a week and it was dirty and damp. Can i leave a small gap maybe? I read the threads and some people don't seem to put it in at all, just leave the mesh floor open. Is 24 hrs too short for monitoring then? I don't understand how long I should leave the tray in or how often.
I take your point about drafts too, Wessexmario - think I will try and operate the hive with tray out and crownboard holes covered for a while. Though how i will know that's Ok is beyond me at the moment.........

 

[Davelin]

You need to leave the tray in at least a week to get an indication of mite drop, even then it's only an indication. I have had a relatively low drop from hives that turned out to have much higher mite level than indicated.

Monitor now and then in August. Unless you get a very high drop now you may not need to treat until autumn.

Leave the board out unless monitoring and cover feed holes, although I leave a small gap in one at this time of year to allow any bees trapped in lid to get back in. You won't get a howling gale through the hive!
There is still the lid on top.

 

[Arfermo]

With a mesh floor in place, make sure that you don't have holes left in your cover board.
It's usual to have one or two holes on manufactured boards for the use of porter bee escapes or feeders. If they're not being used for those purposes, then cover the holes over with a piece of ply or slate, otherwise you'll have a permanent draft through the hive that may chill the brood.

Nonsense. I leave the CB open all year with the mesh floor open except when the temperature drops to -10C or so. I don't wrap them in tea cosy style either and last winter lost none of them - in fact they all came out of winter strong and busy - and I have only lost one colony in the last seven years and that for another reason (my fault). Providing you have ensured they have plenty of stores, treated for varroa in the autumn (Thymol based) and oxalic (sublimation better) around Xmas/New Year and taken on board advice from DEFRA re "Managing Varroa" (Google for the pdf at http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...=MMAeTkDRlFz8UC2nfqoFLQ&bvm=bv.95515949,d.ZGU) or buy a hard copy, that will be as much as you need to think about. Don't fuss too much. Bees have been around quite a while and mostly know what they are about except for human interference eg varroa. shb, tropilaelops, etc.

 

[pargyle]

Nonsense. I leave the CB open all year with the mesh floor open except when the temperature drops to -10C or so. I don't wrap them in tea cosy style either and last winter lost none of them - in fact they all came out of winter strong and busy - and I have only lost one colony in the last seven years and that for another reason (my fault). Providing you have ensured they have plenty of stores, treated for varroa in the autumn (Thymol based) and oxalic (sublimation better) around Xmas/New Year and taken on board advice from DEFRA re "Managing Varroa" (Google for the pdf at http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...=MMAeTkDRlFz8UC2nfqoFLQ&bvm=bv.95515949,d.ZGU) or buy a hard copy, that will be as much as you need to think about. Don't fuss too much. Bees have been around quite a while and mostly know what they are about except for human interference eg varroa. shb, tropilaelops, etc.

Not nonsense ... just a different way of doing things ... and just as successful (indeed - if the observations and opinions of many forum members are anything to go by) if not MORE successful than your keep them cold they will manage way of doing things. I value a different point of view but your dismissive comments fly very much in the face of most modern beekeeping. In fact, the benefits of insulation have been evident in beekeeping circles for a long time .. keeping them cold is another one of those myths that need to be challenged. I think the 'Oxalic trickle in mid winter' is another thing in beekeeping that needs to be challenged as well ...

Again ... this is the Beginners Section and such points of view can have a detrimental effect on their bees when new beekeepers read them in isolation.

 

[itma]

Absolute newbie with a brood and a half colony in a national Hive, mesh floor and metal insert beneath it for varroa monitoring. I must have been asleep during the part of my beekeeping course which covered this, I don't understand what I should be doing for varroa monitoring, can anyone help please? The tray is in. I just cleaned it. It was damp, which I think is not good? Should I be leaving it out, except for varroa mite monitoring? If so - how do I do the monitoring? put the (vaseline coated) tray in for say 24 hours once a week, then take it out and count the mites? I have seen all the complicated stuff about mite drop x days etc - but couldn't find the basics.
Anyone?

The drop through natural mortality (which is how the live population is estimated) on any one individual day may not be typical, so it is best to average things over a few days. Lets take 5 days for example. So you'd take the total number of mites dropped in the 5 days and divide by 5 to get the daily average.

A useful and easily memorable rule of thumb is that an average daily (natural) drop of 10 mites (at any time of year) is a call to action and prompt serious treatment.

I'd suggest that you download the NBU's "Managing Varroa" (free) booklet for the official line on these things.
The 10/day figure comes from the graph that is Figure 54 on page 34 of the Nov 2013 (current) edition.
Download link posted for reference in the 'stickies' section http://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21261

 

[bowlerbee]

Thnank you Itma! getting clearer

 

[theeggman]

Hi 'bowlerbee'. to the forum. Whereabouts in West Devon are you? I'm in Oke.
Are you a member of a local BBKA?

 

[bowlerbee]

Hi Tim, Yes I am a member, near Tavistock. Took the floor out today. Will do a 5 day monitoring this week. Thanks everyone or your advice.

 

[user 6228]

Not nonsense ... just a different way of doing things ... and just as successful (indeed - if the observations and opinions of many forum members are anything to go by) if not MORE successful than your keep them cold they will manage way of doing things. I value a different point of view but your dismissive comments fly very much in the face of most modern beekeeping. In fact, the benefits of insulation have been evident in beekeeping circles for a long time .. keeping them cold is another one of those myths that need to be challenged. I think the 'Oxalic trickle in mid winter' is another thing in beekeeping that needs to be challenged as well ...

Again ... this is the Beginners Section and such points of view can have a detrimental effect on their bees when new beekeepers read them in isolation.

I am right it is Winter!

(For those new to the forum : Winter/Autumn is the normal time for arguments over insulation and ventilation, a bit early this year)

 

[bowlerbee]

Thanks all, mite count completed and found to be about 5 per day - but I had trouble with the vaselvine /meths bit.
Before I started this I had the tray in for a week or so, just because I thought it should be in. I took it out and there was a puddle of water on it, but not so bad - then added the debris to meths and saw a few mites (4,) floating. For the actual control count I coated the tray with vaseline, as advised by FERA, and after 5 days it was covered in water, at least half a cup.I added some of the water, the tray scrapings and 5 dead bees ( worried avout these too....), to meths and it all stuck together in a lump. NO mites floated. I went through the debris, soaking up the meths on paper and spreading the debris out to count the mites. My final count, with a low to medium level of confidence is 35, max, allowing for losing some mites as a lot of the water ran off the tray when I moved it....... Reluctant to try this again as I did not like the water and am keeping the tray out. Much conflicting advice but on the whole, after consulting with the previous owner of this hive, ( who uses wooden floors and normally keeps the tray in), we decided that:
A) the water problem might be due to use of a metal tray causing condensation - the nights have been very cold. Common sense says the bees will not like living over a puddle of dirty water, so leave tray out and monitor.
B) The mite levels are probably fine, 35 sounds like an over estimate, he did a spring Oxalic acid treatment.
C) About the dead bees - no idea if this is normal?

We have in the meantime re-homed 3 more colonies from the same beekeeper, nothin like jumping in the deep end is there?

 

[bowlerbee]

Just noticed its a lot easier to search this forum directly through google than through the site 'Search' so will no longer be bothering anyone with stupid questions that have already been answered 20 times

 

[Ely]

Nonsense. I leave the CB open all year with the mesh floor open except when the temperature drops to -10C or so. I don't wrap them in tea cosy style either and last winter lost none of them - in fact they all came out of winter strong and busy - and I have only lost one colony in the last seven years and that for another reason (my fault). Providing you have ensured they have plenty of stores, treated for varroa in the autumn (Thymol based) and oxalic (sublimation better) around Xmas/New Year and taken on board advice from DEFRA re "Managing Varroa" (Google for the pdf at http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...=MMAeTkDRlFz8UC2nfqoFLQ&bvm=bv.95515949,d.ZGU) or buy a hard copy, that will be as much as you need to think about. Don't fuss too much. Bees have been around quite a while and mostly know what they are about except for human interference eg varroa. shb, tropilaelops, etc.

A through draft is no good for a colony. Period.

This winter. Keep your front, back and loft doors wide open then observe your energy bills in comparison to the year previous. Yes your bees may have come out strong this Spring but they have had to work so much harder to do so. Just think how much stronger they could have been if you could have insulated them, which would still be less insulation than a natural tree nest!

 

[pargyle]

A through draft is no good for a colony. Period.

This winter. Keep your front, back and loft doors wide open then observe your energy bills in comparison to the year previous. Yes your bees may have come out strong this Spring but they have had to work so much harder to do so. Just think how much stronger they could have been if you could have insulated them, which would still be less insulation than a natural tree nest!

You won't convince Afermo .. he's a died in the wool 'it works for me so why change' keep 'em cold and make 'em hard beekeeper. Old school but there's a lot out there that still work their hives like this. The mistake is to have mesh floors with an open coverboard ... the idea of a small amount of through ventilation came from the days when all hives had solid floors .. with the onset of varroa (and mesh floors) there were a lot of people who mistakenly combined the two .. so with a mesh floor and an open coverboard you get a howling gale through the hive (in bee terms). You only have to witness the bees efforts to seal the top of the hive prior to winter to recognise that they don't like it ..

But there's none so deaf as those that won't listen.

PS: This is not for your benefit Ely as I know you know ... but there's a new beekeeper listening and it's for his ears.

 

[Ely]

You won't convince Afermo .. he's a died in the wool 'it works for me so why change' keep 'em cold and make 'em hard beekeeper. Old school but there's a lot out there that still work their hives like this. The mistake is to have mesh floors with an open coverboard ... the idea of a small amount of through ventilation came from the days when all hives had solid floors .. with the onset of varroa (and mesh floors) there were a lot of people who mistakenly combined the two .. so with a mesh floor and an open coverboard you get a howling gale through the hive (in bee terms). You only have to witness the bees efforts to seal the top of the hive prior to winter to recognise that they don't like it ..

But there's none so deaf as those that won't listen.

PS: This is not for your benefit Ely as I know you know ... but there's a new beekeeper listening and it's for his ears.

Yup. That's the problem, teaching poor practises to newcomers.

 

[pargyle]

Just noticed its a lot easier to search this forum directly through google than through the site 'Search' so will no longer be bothering anyone with stupid questions that have already been answered 20 times

Don't ever feel restrained about asking what seems to be a stupid question on here ... lots of nice people will always respond even when it's been asked 20 times before. The key to getting a few good answers (and most of them will be different !) is to provide as much information as you can about the situation. What rattles peoples cages is the sort of one line question that goes 'I've got a queen cell in my hive what should I do ?' and expect a sensible answer .. you won't usually get one !

In terms of your hive .. I would get rid of the metal inspection tray and replace it with either a piece of white Correx or a piece of white melamine/formica .. the metal is causing the condensation and whilst it is not a disaster it will make life difficult as you have already discovered.

I don't think Vaseline (as recommended by the BBKA - I take a lot of things they say with a pinch of salt !) is the best. I tend not to use anything sticky as you are counting DEAD mites and they don't move .. I just look every day and count how many mites there are and note it down .. they are pretty easy to spot when the tray is clean ... brush the tray off and start again for the next day. It saves all the crap of compiling the debris, putting it into meths, straining out the mites ... what a palava !!

Over a period you can determine whether you have just a consistent drop of a few mites or sometimes you see a spike in the drop.

I'm a bit unusual as I don't treat my hives for Varroa and I check the mite drop on a daily basis .. so the inspection board stays in all the year round. BUT .. my inspection boards are a good 3" below the mesh floor so they are not conventional. Having said that, the method I use for mite counting works very well and is in no way the sort of faffing around you have been advised to do. My hives are in the garden so, again, it's easy for me - an out apiary would make this more difficult.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Don't ever feel restrained about asking what seems to be a stupid question on here ... lots of nice people will always respond even when it's been asked 20 times before.

After all, a lot on here have no qualms about giving stupid answers

 

[pargyle]

After all, a lot on here have no qualms about giving stupid answers

The trick for a new beekeeper to learn is that it's not always those with the most beekeeping credentials that have the best answer ....

There is not often a consensus amongst replies as there is often more than one right way to tackle a problem as well as a few wrong 'uns.

Thinking about what YOU are going to do and then carrying out a plan of action is the part of beekeeping that is most challenging ... not just for new beekeepers either !