Unpleasant colony - what would you do?

[barratt_sab]

Here's the history:

We did a cut-out for a neighbour and took home a box of bees and comb.
The area was left completely clear of bees and wax, and we checked later that night and again the following day for stragglers - it was still clear.

We put them in a hive, with some of their comb tied into frames (brood and stores) and some foundation - they were unpleasant to handle, but I felt they might calm down once we'd stopped messing them around.

After a couple of weeks, there were no eggs or uncapped lava, so we put in a test frame from another colony (nice bees) and they drew a cell, so we figured that the queen had got lost / squashed / left behind and we left them to it for a month.

Last weekend we inspected and got a right pasting for our trouble, but it was windy, so we thought maybe they didn't like that... there was no sign of eggs or brood.

This weekend we went in again, and if anything they were worse - multiple stings on the arms and gloves, constant bombardment around the head, lots of following... and now there are eggs (sensible pattern, one egg per cell at the bottom) - but of course she could well have mated with drones from the original colony.

We've dealt with unpleasant colonies when Q- who calmed down once they had brood again and we've dealt with colonies that are working OSR but this one goes way beyond this - it is really unpleasant to work and I am fed up with their ####.


So, we have unpleasant bees, and a mated queen who may produce more unpleasant bees or may not...

Would you:

1. keep the queen (and put her in a nuc with other bees)?
2. keep the bees (and requeen with another queen)?
3. keep both and wait & see?
4. keep neither?

My vote is for (4) - all thoughts appreciated.

Stephen

 

[biggles]

I'd put them on the end of a row of hives and keep them. Go through them last but keep them to stop kids knocking the hives over etc ( guard bees). I have a hive like this at all my apiarys.
I have notice that sometimes the next generation queen from them is a very gentle queen and easy to work with.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The new queen has only just started laying - so all the bees in that hive are still the stroppy ba***rds you had before so you shouldn't expect a change in temperament yet - it will be a good few weeks before the temperament of the present queen becomes evident in the workers (once the old ones start dying out and are replaced with what she has laid this week) so I'm afraid it's still a waiting game. So I think option 3 is the only sensible one.
The weather hasn't been good for temperament either - my hives, usually as docile as anything have been a bit of a nightmare the last month. The (usually) gentlest of them are absolutely horrible - stinging, pinging and following, but five minutes after closing up they're cool again.
Patience and perseverance I think

 

[stuart]

I too have a colony like this. It is from a swarm from another keepers colony. It was very week when I got it and picked it up the day after he had caught it. It was in a correx travel box with no frames so I tipped them into a brood box I,d set up. It was 8pm and quite a warm evening. Many went straight in and by morning all.
They have been in place about 4 weeks and very nasty. I,ve added a super with no QE to give the queen more room to lay plus another above the QE.
Stung today through my hat
Had nasty bees before mid summer, added second brood box and they calmed down by the following morning
Any other methods to make them happy

 

[rae]

Just been through this. It takes 8 weeks from "new queen" to "a perceptible improvement in behaviour". Your queen cell came from good stock, she may have mated with a nightmare drone, she may not.

Either:

1) Leave them for another month to get on with it

or

2) If you have a spare nuc (or want to decrease numbers), suit up, kill this suspect queen and merge.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Stephen,
Your new queen - from different stock is now laying. OK she may have mated with some drones from the wrong side of the tracks but you won't know that for another few weeks until her own bees are mature and the old ones have died.
As they are unlikely to swarm with a new queen, you just need to ensure they have food and they'll sort themselves out OK I would guess.

I had a similar colony this year although not as bad - despite having a (virgin) queen with the swarm, there was always a bunch of bees hanging around the entrance looking for a fight. it wasn't until the queen had been laying for a week or more did they all go in the hive (busy brooding I guess) that you could walk past them without worry. AND this is the queen from the same colony. Once I have some mature queens spare from a selected colony they'll be requeened or maybe united.

 

[johnandyrob]

I'd put them on the end of a row of hives and keep them. Go through them last but keep them to stop kids knocking the hives over etc ( guard bees). I have a hive like this at all my apiarys.
I have notice that sometimes the next generation queen from them is a very gentle queen and easy to work with.

Is that not giving the bad traits a chance to carry on muddying the Jean pool

 

[Poly Hive]

Hmm.

I am not disagreeing with the math as that is set pretty much in stone but my experience of a foul mooded lot is a decent queen as soon as her pheromones are around the troops they change dramatically. Of course there is always the prove the rule exception.

I would give them some more time and if no use then take of the queen as a nuc and unite the rest to a decent box to boost it up.

I bet left alone though they are honey getters.

PH

 

[susbees]

Hmm.

I am not disagreeing with the math as that is set pretty much in stone but my experience of a foul mooded lot is a decent queen as soon as her pheromones are around the troops they change dramatically. Of course there is always the prove the rule exception.

PH

Testing this as we speak after combining both halfs of the AS of my worst hive (by miles) with other smallish colonies. There are beekeepers who have swapped queens to show that the temperament follows the queen and say it does. I tried that with a tetchy queen last year....put her in a nuc and put their queen in the big hive. Nuc had got rid of narky queen by next inspection! Others ok.

 

[thepliedes]

Agreed - keep them, give them a chance. Everyone deserves a second chance.

 

[richardbees]

It'll take until august until you see a positive change in temperament....

Everyone deserves a second chance.

Where on earth did you get that idea from? Second time round Adolph would have left Russia 'til later!

 

[oliver90owner]

my experience of a foul mooded lot is a decent queen as soon as her pheromones are around the troops they change dramatically.

Mine, too.

But you cannot always expect he incumbent queen to be completely docile until proven in a colony. Buying from a respected breeder or rearer is clearly better than buying from an unknown origin. Some of my queens turn out to be feisty; in that case one just ties again. No rocket science precision required, as you can have more than one attempt usually, where bees are concerned. Just need patience, as usual.

 

[barratt_sab]

Thanks all - I will leave them for a while longer and see if they can turn it around.

I wat to bailey change them anyway, to get them off the comb that we put in from the cutout, so maybe I'll give them a new bb and some syrup and leave them to it.

 

[drstitson]

PH (and rab) - i presume that the "immediate" change in temperament with a new queen is just the case with formal requeening rather than in-house replacement like in this case?

OP re mating with nasty drones - in the talk at the BBKA spring meet JP showed that not only to queens and drones travel different distances to DCAs (queens just far enough for a good gene pool but not so far that risks of death in transit were too great; drones further) BUT that queens and drones tended to head off in different directions to different DCAs.

 

[barratt_sab]

OP re mating with nasty drones - in the talk at the BBKA spring meet JP showed that not only to queens and drones travel different distances to DCAs (queens just far enough for a good gene pool but not so far that risks of death in transit were too great; drones further) BUT that queens and drones tended to head off in different directions to different DCAs.

That would be good news for us, as we brought them home after the cutout, rather than taking them to one of of the out apiaries (so we could monitor them for disease before moving them out to the other hives) and so the original bees were the only colony on that site when she would have mated.

Was any indication given as to approximate distances of flight of either queens or drones to the DCA?

 

[jackbee]

That would be good news for us, as we brought them home after the cutout, rather than taking them to one of of the out apiaries (so we could monitor them for disease before moving them out to the other hives) and so the original bees were the only colony on that site when she would have mated.

Was any indication given as to approximate distances of flight of either queens or drones to the DCA?

Just checked some notes I made and I have drones up to 5km, maybe 6 in exceptional circumstances. I don't have figure for Q but he did say in and out time for Q is up to 30 min max

 

[barratt_sab]

Great - thanks! That cheers me up no end, as it means that she was well within the range of the drones from the out apiaries.

 

[jackbee]

Great - thanks! That cheers me up no end, as it means that she was well within the range of the drones from the out apiaries.

of course it's not the distance bnetween apiaries but the distances between each apiary and the DCA that is important - good luck finding the DCA

 

[barratt_sab]

of course it's not the distance bnetween apiaries but the distances between each apiary and the DCA that is important - good luck finding the DCA

Indeed - but at these flight distances at least I stand a chance of getting something reasonable, not just a queen mated by a drone from the box of anger I've got at my house right now!

 

[barratt_sab]

Update

I went through them last evening, as it wasn't raining.

They have a queen, who is laying... and they were reasonably well behaved! No stings, no head buzzing or pinging on my hat and following measured in feet not tens of yards.

I have been doing weekly inspections for the last month, and yesterday was the first time that they were reasonable to work with. I don't know if the poor weather we have had has slowed down their rehabilitation.

The frames are still a mess, but at least I've got a colony that I can work with.

Thanks again for your thoughts and advice - another lesson in patience.