Uniting colonies of different sizes

[Do224]

Is it possible to unite a large queenless colony with a very small queen right one? For example a full q- bb with a small q+ colony that’s on say 3 frames…

And vice versa?

 

[Ian123]

Yes…..

 

[Erichalfbee]

I know folk say it doesn’t matter but I would make sure the queenright one is on top if it is the small colony

 

[Do224]

…and do you need to wait until the q- colony is hopelessly queenless or can you unite as soon as you make them queenless?

Perhaps it depends on whether using newspaper or air freshener? I’m thinking newspaper might result in queen cells whereas air freshener wouldn’t…

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

and do you need to wait until the q- colony is hopelessly queenless or can you unite as soon as you make them queenless?

If you are going to dispose of one queen, do the unite immediately on removing her

 

[Do224]

If you are going to dispose of one queen, do the unite immediately on removing her

Would there be queen cells to deal with or do they break through the newspaper before the bees have time to make them?

 

[madasafish]

This Spring I united a Q+ colony in an Apidea with a Q- National. Apidea on top - obviously.
No issues.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Would there be queen cells to deal with or do they break through the newspaper before the bees have time to make them?

they'll have broken through

 

[CosmoRossini]

Is it possible to unite a large queenless colony with a very small queen right one? For example a full q- bb with a small q+ colony that’s on say 3 frames…

And vice versa?

I did this last week with a Q+ nuc adding to a very large Q- colony. The Q- colony had been Q- for 5 days, they had 1 queen cell remaining.
Wednesday morning I moved the nuc into a full sized brood with stand in front of the Q- colony. Both entrances facing south.
Wednesday afternoon I removed the remaining queen cell from Q- and dbl checked no others had been built up. Also set the unite stage by placing newspaper above the top super, QX, crown board, roof.
Wednesday night (at dusk) I removed the Q- roof and crown board, slits in the newspaper.
A couple puffs of smoke under the Q+ colony to push the bees up on the frames (a few were on the OMF)
Q+ BB placed atop the Q-, QX
Thursday there was a mass of newspaper confetti under and in front of the hive.
Saturday, top BB was moved to bottom so the config was now Q+ BB, QX, BB with Q- brood, supers, crown board, roof
I checked them again last night (Thursday) to make sure the queen was ok (I was a bit rough with her Saturday when marking). All good. I wish I‘d spent a few more minutes checking for queen cells last night but I’m re-queening because they are defensive and not nice at all to work with.

 

[Linda G]

I'm considering doing this but the queenless colony has been without a queen for at least 3 or 4 weeks. (they failed to create a new queen from a capped cell) Is it too late to unite them.? Also, they have been busy making honey and now have 5 supers! Should I reduce the number of supers before uniting, and what in order should I put the supers? I don't really want to shake them out as there are still thousands of quite feisty bees and my other 2 hives are likely to be overwhelmed.

 

[Swarm]

I'm considering doing this but the queenless colony has been without a queen for at least 3 or 4 weeks. (they failed to create a new queen from a capped cell) Is it too late to unite them.? Also, they have been busy making honey and now have 5 supers! Should I reduce the number of supers before uniting, and what in order should I put the supers? I don't really want to shake them out as there are still thousands of quite feisty bees and my other 2 hives are likely to be overwhelmed.

Don't be too hasty, another couple of weeks you could see eggs in there. I usually start to consider failure after six weeks but I got caught out this year and found eggs after seven weeks.
If they are definitely queenless you can do things in stages, unite the supers first.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Should I reduce the number of supers before uniting, and what in order should I put the supers

No need to faff and fiddle about, just put the Q+ donor colony on top of the whole setup, ie Q- colony, QX, supers, newspaper,QX, Q+ colony. If the Q+ colony has any supers, then they go right on top.

 

[StephenT]

No need to faff and fiddle about, just put the Q+ donor colony on top of the whole setup, ie Q- colony, QX, supers, newspaper,QX, Q+ colony. If the Q+ colony has any supers, then they go right on top.

Bit of an old thread but this is what I am looking to do next weekend. I’ve got a very defensive double brood in a suburban setting with three supers. On top is another brood box on a solid floor with a new queen that is now laying. Reason it’s sitting on top is that it was part of a Demaree I was doing. If I kill the queen at the bottom and then unite with the new queen on top above the supers, won’t there be a lack of pheromone leading to QCs at the bottom? The last thing I want to do is to have to shake bees off all the frames to remove any QCs. Could I unite with the new queen brood box sitting between the bottom brood boxes and the supers?

 

[Antipodes]

Bit of an old thread but this is what I am looking to do next weekend. I’ve got a very defensive double brood in a suburban setting with three supers. On top is another brood box on a solid floor with a new queen that is now laying. Reason it’s sitting on top is that it was part of a Demaree I was doing. If I kill the queen at the bottom and then unite with the new queen on top above the supers, won’t there be a lack of pheromone leading to QCs at the bottom? The last thing I want to do is to have to shake bees off all the frames to remove any QCs. Could I unite with the new queen brood box sitting between the bottom brood boxes and the supers?

As to them making queen cells, not necessarily, in my experience, but I'd look to reduce the size of the whole set up. If you going to find the queen in the bottom colony, perhaps use the opportunity to condense the brood as much as possible there? How many frames are your boxes and would you expect to be able to get the brood into a single box?
The other thing to be really careful of is to make sure the top queen is well established, with her own workers having emerged, before combining.

 

[Antipodes]

Bit of an old thread but this is what I am looking to do next weekend. I’ve got a very defensive double brood in a suburban setting with three supers. On top is another brood box on a solid floor with a new queen that is now laying. Reason it’s sitting on top is that it was part of a Demaree I was doing. If I kill the queen at the bottom and then unite with the new queen on top above the supers, won’t there be a lack of pheromone leading to QCs at the bottom? The last thing I want to do is to have to shake bees off all the frames to remove any QCs. Could I unite with the new queen brood box sitting between the bottom brood boxes and the supers?

It could depend on how you combine too. Prior to killing the queen below and before a single sheet newspaper combine, I'd put a double screen between them for a while.

 

[Sutty]

It could depend on how you combine too. Prior to killing the queen below and before a single sheet newspaper combine, I'd put a double screen between them for a while.

Maybe a single screen would be better? Stop fighting but let trophylaxis and colony scent mix.

 

[Antipodes]

Maybe a single screen would be better? Stop fighting but let trophylaxis and colony scent mix.

Yes, it should work.

 

[StephenT]

Thank you for the advice. @Antipodes Condensing the bottom two brood boxes is not really feasible as there's 22 frames with about 16 frames of brood. I like the idea of having a mesh screen for a bit and then unite using newspaper. I assume this is all with the brood box with the new queen sitting on top of the 3 supers. After uniting, how long would you leave it before moving the brood box from the top to be directly on top of the other two brood boxes? The plan once things had settled would be to stick a queen excluder below the top brood box (after making sure the queen is not in there) and letting them fill it with honey and so I'm not on triple brood. The frames in that box are all fairly new.

 

[Sutty]

I have seen a "uniting board" for sale - bee proof mesh with a very small patch of queen excluder in one corner.

 

[Antipodes]

Thank you for the advice. @Antipodes Condensing the bottom two brood boxes is not really feasible as there's 22 frames with about 16 frames of brood. I like the idea of having a mesh screen for a bit and then unite using newspaper. I assume this is all with the brood box with the new queen sitting on top of the 3 supers. After uniting, how long would you leave it before moving the brood box from the top to be directly on top of the other two brood boxes? The plan once things had settled would be to stick a queen excluder below the top brood box (after making sure the queen is not in there) and letting them fill it with honey and so I'm not on triple brood. The frames in that box are all fairly new.

I see.
I'd take the two colonies (as they are) to a remote area first - (like a farm or a site you have other bees that is not an urban setting) and leave for a couple of days. Come back two days later and get rid of the extra brood box at the bottom. Donate the extra five frames with the smallest patches of brood to other colonies. (I'd put them and the honey/pollen frames in a box to one side with a thick towel over them -to take away. Keep them as warm as possible when moving them).
Put the brood box with the new laying queen (with her workers and emerging brood) directly over the bottom box on a screen. A few days later I'd remove the queen from the bottom, take the screen away and put a sheet of newspaper between them instead. The new queen box must be reasonably packed with bees with plenty of emerging brood. Put the three supers above the top brood on a queen excluder.
Leave them for a week and inspect the top brood box. You should see eggs, so no need to find the young queen.