Tudorcd queen introduction (New Zealand)

[Anduril]

Just as an experiment I tried introducing 3 ripe queen cells surrounded by aluminium foil into 3 hives with bad temper, one in each from a placid hive. I found that 2 out of the 3 have been successful. I now have one calm hive, one that has improved slightly and one still with bad temper because the queen failed to emerge. I just need a few more refinements with timing and age of queen cell.
As alternative way of calming bees down from your own stock, I will probably try again.

 

[For want of a better word]

Do you wrap the foil around the cell like a tube and insert betwixt two frames?

Temperament must surely depend upon not only the queen but the drone the new queen mated with.... if you have Native Black bees the cross out with anything with a dash or Carnie will possibly result in bitches from the hot fiery place!

Yeghes da

 

[Anduril]

Do you wrap the foil around the cell like a tube and insert betwixt two frames?

Yes that is what I did using a cocktail stick to hang it between the frames. The virgin queen then killed the resident mated queen. May try it with a jenter kit at sometime and choose the best looking cells.

 

[For want of a better word]

Yes that is what I did using a cocktail stick to hang it between the frames. The virgin queen then killed the resident mated queen. May try it with a jenter kit at sometime and choose the best looking cells.

I think I wold have gone in an snuffed the old lass me'self... sounds risky!


Yeghes da

 

[Anduril]

I think I wold have gone in an snuffed the old lass me'self... sounds risky!


Yeghes da

Not too bad if the queens differ in colour. You can see the results.

 

[For want of a better word]

Not too bad if the queens differ in colour. You can see the results.

Less or more yellow stripes ????... or visa versa.. depending if you are lucky and have bees in the West.... or live next the Cold Norf Sea!

Yeghes da

 

[Anduril]

Less or more yellow stripes ????... or visa versa.. depending if you are lucky and have bees in the West.... or live next the Cold Norf Sea!

Yeghes da

Queen cells from nice calm black queens.

 

[For want of a better word]

Queen cells from nice calm black queens.

Bliss !..................
...........Diolch

Yeghes da

 

[tudorcd]

Protection is to keep the other queen from the sides of the cell, they are inhibited from having a go at the opening of the cell.
Aluminium foil wrapped as you like, a bit of 18mm polyprop tubing cut to length so the queen is safe and can get out, or a plastic protector which can be bought.
The cell can be embedded into the face of a frame pointing down, or suspended between the top bars spread apart a bit - best place is near to brood, so I am told, so that's what we do. I like the toothpick variation, sounds great.
Then check after 4-5 days for exit - remove cell, and use a pointy thing to lift the lid as it can fall back and appear that she has not exited. No exit, do an autopsy to see if queen is dead or black and how much royal jelly is present.
Then get another cell and pop it in, time not critical as the hive is still Q+.
Or the virgin queen may be alive and need help to get out, have done this once or twice and they can do OK.
No exits are quite unusual, and successful matings laying worker brood run about 80%.
Mild mannered black bees sound very nice.

 

[Anduril]

Will the age of the queen cell matter. Near to emerging better than cell just capped.

 

[tudorcd]

Until "ripe" the queen is very vulnerable to bumps etc. so we usually wait until day 10 after grafting, she should then have emerged in 3-4 days.
You can insert them earlier and success is good if you keep them warm and handle very carefully - and one can learn that skill.
My experience with grafted cells is a few days earlier, obviously we act much earlier using swarm cells, another subject.

 

[For want of a better word]

tudorcd... can you expand on the fact that colony is Q+... as when I have tried a similar method ( with Italian extraction bees) the colony has swarmed with the "old" queen, or the virgin has been killed ( I presume as extant "old"queen still in colony)


Must try this with the pure native Cornish Amm as they seem to do things very differently to the imports!

Amms often seem to have two queens... which according to the books ( written for imports & hybrids) does not happen as one queen will kill the other?

Yeghes da

 

[tudorcd]

Hi icanopit,
If the queen in the cell dies then the host hive queen is still going - if she has emerged then the money is on her winning.
Immediate swarming control is not one of the goals of this procedure, and I think a swarm after requeening implied that the virgin had been beaten. Difficult one to be sure. Do you mark your queens ?
I have seen a small "swarm" accompany a virgin queen on a mating flight, settled back near the nuc that had been set up, and I popped them back in the nuc and they did very well.
It will be good to hear how your local bees do. What we see with Italians may well be common to all species, being hard wired behaviours - or am I too optimistic ?
Two queens seem to be much more common than we realise, as most bk's (me included) seem to mark the first queen they find and feel that the job is done - and the other queen is not identified. Setting up queen rearing boxes showed me the error of my ways. Interesting to hear about other bk's experience about this.

 

[itma]

...
I have seen a small "swarm" accompany a virgin queen on a mating flight, settled back near the nuc that had been set up, and I popped them back in the nuc and they did very well.
...

Its quite common that some bees exit the hive with Q on a mating flight.
The bees usually cluster close by the source hive, as with a proper swarm.
HOWEVER, when they discover that they don't have Q with them (she kept going for a few miles rather than the few tens of yards for a swarm), the bees will return to the source hive by themselves (maybe 10 minutes) - and will typically 'beard' on the front of the hive, with a vast number Nasonov 'calling' Q back. They shuffle off inside (the body language is almost apologetic) when she comes back.
There should be no need to try and 'collect' the cluster from what some call "false swarms".



While agreeing that foil-wrapping (or using a commercial protector) is a good idea in principle for QC introduction (especially to a colony not expecting a QC), I think I prefer the idea of finding and removing old Q to the idea of leaving that job to the virgin. Shifting the whole hive several yards away (for even half an hour or so) results in a dramatic reduction in the number of bees for you to look through, and the remaining bees will be predominantly non-flying and non-stinging young bees - which makes the job much less unpleasant even on the most unfriendly hive.
I now leave (or return) floor, QX (for drones) and supers in the original location for the foragers/fliers to return to. That way, I can happily leave them apart as long as I need to find Q.

/// The more hives you have, the more you can 'play the odds'. But the fewer hives one has, the more one wants to try and stack the odds as far in your favour as as you possibly can! You try and make sure as far as you can.

 

[For want of a better word]

Tudorcd..
I mark queens as I find them......
But in future for the Amm breeding program I am gluing numbered discs on.... school is still our as to which glue is best... a topic B+ has expanded upon!

The brood laying pattern is very different between Amms and Italian
Amms classic crescent of stores brood and pollen... Italians wall to wall brood!

Yeghes da

 

[mbc]

I practice a bit of supercedure requeening, my thoughts on it for my bees (largely amm) and my area (west coast of Wales) is that there is very little to be gained by it unless you have oodles of queen cells and nowhere to put them. The pertinent fact for why it isn't more widely practiced round here imho is that, more often than not, the virgin will kill the old queen -all good so far- but then she can take over three weeks to mate, a long time of uncertainty and a colony in limbo, waiting to get going with their new queen.

 

[tudorcd]

Tudorcd..

The brood laying pattern is very different between Amms and Italian
Amms classic crescent of stores brood and pollen... Italians wall to wall brood!

Yeghes da

Using an unlimited brood box we have found that the Italian queens favour the beautiful pattern of brood, pollen and honey which are cuts across the nest, rather than the commercial methods which force the queen into limited space. And this method gives the wall to wall brood which the commercial bk's like.

How quickly do the AMMs build up after winter, and do they go brood less ?

 

[tudorcd]

I practice a bit of supercedure requeening, my thoughts on it for my bees (largely amm) and my area (west coast of Wales) is that there is very little to be gained by it unless you have oodles of queen cells and nowhere to put them. The pertinent fact for why it isn't more widely practiced round here imho is that, more often than not, the virgin will kill the old queen -all good so far- but then she can take over three weeks to mate, a long time of uncertainty and a colony in limbo, waiting to get going with their new queen.

Never occurred to me to use supercedure cells (is that what you referred to ?), I usually just leave the girls to sort it out.
When using a ripe cell the timing must be about the same, the hive still has eggs from the incumbent queen and lots brood, and apart from opening to check for successful emergence we leave the hive alone for 3 weeks so as not to disturb a flighty VQ. The bees are usually very cheerful and busy, and usually have the benefit of a young, strong queen.
The real problem is getting hold of cells or mated queens, they are often there its just a matter of connections or the local club getting them and doling them out. I recently handed out 12 cells in the parking lot of a big hardware shop (from my nice portable incubator), and had ribald remarks from BK's that passing me money in plain envelopes could be mis-interpreted by the boys in blue reviewing the CCTV footage !

 

[mbc]

Never occurred to me to use supercedure cells (is that what you referred to ?), I usually just leave the girls to sort it out.
When using a ripe cell the timing must be about the same, the hive still has eggs from the incumbent queen and lots brood, and apart from opening to check for successful emergence we leave the hive alone for 3 weeks so as not to disturb a flighty VQ. The bees are usually very cheerful and busy, and usually have the benefit of a young, strong queen.
The real problem is getting hold of cells or mated queens, they are often there its just a matter of connections or the local club getting them and doling them out. I recently handed out 12 cells in the parking lot of a big hardware shop (from my nice portable incubator), and had ribald remarks from BK's that passing me money in plain envelopes could be mis-interpreted by the boys in blue reviewing the CCTV footage !

Lol to the car park. .
no to the supercedure cells, supercedure requeening is the name used to describe requeeening using a protected cell in a queenright hive.

 

[For want of a better word]

could be mis-interpreted by the boys in blue reviewing the CCTV footage !
.. Classic !!!

Amms seem to do better overall than the Italian imports, generally in this part of the South West... but then they have been evolving here in our Temperate Maritime Climate for 10,000 years,,, the Italians and hybrids have only been here since 1860, so not surprisingly are not always the best type of honeybee to keep ( although I try !!!)

Yeghes da