Trying to capture my Swarm

[summo]

Apologies first of all as I'm sure this question appears often.

Background. 19 days ago I split one hive into 3. All have been going well. Queen remained laying in 1, cells appeared in the others, be were active and fairly well distributed. All new hives had drawn out frames, and were either 2 brood or brood and a half.

Yesterday - Day 18 from the split. One of the newly queened hives swarmed. There are a few bees remaining in there, but I've to locate a queen. Surely if they were going to swarm it would have been over a week ago?

Next capture, they swarm is hanging on/within one of my home made woven hazel gate. I've tried swapping them off, and cutting some of the hazel, which has wrecked the gate, I got a fair amount in a cardboard box, but not the queen. She and her posse, just worked their way up within the hazel.

Next, I placed a small hive, with some drawn comb near the swarm and the cardboard box, the bees in the box were interested and crawl in for a look. By now it was 10pm and the sun was very low.

So this morning, I have a some bees in the hive (perhaps a fifth or sixth), the rest clustered on the gate. Once it warm up a little, isn't likely that swarm will all locate to the hive? Another ideas for capturing the swarm, when it's all but impossible to get the queen? I've read of smoking them off something?

Finally, say they all go in the hive as I type now, the hive isn't really where I want it. If once in, I move the hive, before they settle will that work, or will I have to move the hive somewhere else a few km's away, then bring it back?

Apologies for the ramble. Thanks for any advice.

 

[Erichalfbee]

****

Apologies first of all as I'm sure this question appears often.

Background. 19 days ago I split one hive into 3. All have been going well. Queen remained laying in 1, cells appeared in the others, be were active and fairly well distributed. All new hives had drawn out frames, and were either 2 brood or brood and a half.

Yesterday - Day 18 from the split. One of the newly queened hives swarmed. There are a few bees remaining in there, but I've to locate a queen. Surely if they were going to swarm it would have been over a week ago?

No. Day 1 o f split QC started. will be from eggs so that takes you to day 15ish 3 days to harden and off she goes....day 18

Next capture, they swarm is hanging on/within one of my home made woven hazel gate. I've tried swapping them off, and cutting some of the hazel, which has wrecked the gate, I got a fair amount in a cardboard box, but not the queen. She and her posse, just worked their way up within the hazel.

Next, I placed a small hive, with some drawn comb near the swarm and the cardboard box, the bees in the box were interested and crawl in for a look. By now it was 10pm and the sun was very low.

So this morning, I have a some bees in the hive (perhaps a fifth or sixth), the rest clustered on the gate. Once it warm up a little, isn't likely that swarm will all locate to the hive? Another ideas for capturing the swarm, when it's all but impossible to get the queen? I've read of smoking them off something?

They will go where their queen is

Finally, say they all go in the hive as I type now, the hive isn't really where I want it. If once in, I move the hive, before they settle will that work, or will I have to move the hive somewhere else a few km's away, then bring it back?

Once you have them in a hive of some sort you can move them wherever you like
Apologies for the ramble. Thanks for any advice.

 

[HM Honey]

If you can, try and put a box directly above the bees on the gate. The will generally gravitate upwards into the darkness of the box.

Maybe take the gate off its hinges and lay it on the ground with the box directly over it.

 

[Polyanwood]

i wondered why you said 'splits' and not artificial swarm. I wonder if they were in swarm fever or not? If they were, splits often don't stop the swarming fever. It is also difficult to see virgin queens and it is easy to miss queen cells. This means that making splits can increase the risk of swarms.

If there are small clumps of bees that do not want to go together, it is possible each has its own queen.

 

[summo]

I'll clarify - I split the original hive 3 ways, so they each got a roughly equally amount of non flying bees, larva and stored honey / pollen. Perhaps I'm just using the wrong terminology.

I follow the 15+3 for luck, but that would presume they used the newest egg to form a queen and that despite going to a new spacious vacant hive, their instinct to flee wasn't dulled. I can only presume that swarm fever was already in action prior to me splitting.

Gate removed / wrecked, sheet placed on the floor and shook them off, sheet pulled towards potential hive (1m away) and pinned in front of hive. In the frenzy of activity, most have crept up towards the hive front. So I've left them for little while, ideally they'll use it, if not hopefully they will cluster somewhere on the hive front etc. which will be much easier to catch them, than the woven gate.

Thanks for advice, I'll let you know!

 

[Polyanwood]

I think they might have already been in swarm fever as you say.

The advice about bees wanting to climb up into dark space is good advice. Unless they are fanning at the entrance of the nuc and already going in, it could do no harm to rest a cardboard box propped up by a brick over the cluster on the sheet. You could then more easily throw them into the nuc.

 

[summo]

I'm heading back for a look shortly, I'll take a box and try. A mixture of tactics would seem appropriate. The 2 or more queens theory mentioned above, might explain why they were happy to remain in 2 clusters overnight.

It's a science this beekeeping lark!

To add to the excitement, we are expecting some big thunderstorms today and I'd really think them homed soon. Open fields, lighting, me and bees are best not mixed together.

 

[oliver90owner]

Surely if they were going to swarm it would have been over a week ago?

I would expect others above have basically said 'Why?'

You went about this in completely the wrong way. I daresay you will likely finish with a couple of scrubby queens and the original queen going later in the year.

Reading up on demaree for supercedure queen cells might have been a good place to start.

Edited to add:

It's a science this beekeeping lark!

Mutiple emergency queen cells and multiple casts are easily foreseen.

Simple and entirely logical if you consider all the options carefully and not go blundering on blindly.

 

[beeno]

Hi summo,
I would like clarification from the pros whether it is realistic to assume that a queenless split would produce an emergency queen from an egg. Since they are in a hurry to requeen themselves would they not start off with say a two day old larvae? Also, is this not the way to increase the risk of getting a scrub queen as one should preferably let the main colony raise the queen cells? Discuss.
Also, ericA mentioned three days for hardening of the newly emerged queen. I have also read this somewhere. How does this tally with a newly emerged queen piping to find her rivals to eliminate them and then one of them flies off? Am I to understand that a newly emerged queen needs three days for hardening in order to do orientation flights and mating flights, but needs no hardening to swarm? Seems a bit illogical to me?
Sorry, to hijack your thread summo, but at least I am talking beekeeping. God luck with the aftermath, I am watching mine with interest. Hope my best hives will fare better!

 

[summo]

yes, I think queens for the youngest eggs / larva are best. But, having taking a hit during the winter (very long here), I was perhaps a little too keen to re-expand.

If the theory of the original hive being in swarm mode already is true, then I have to be ready of the other 2 splits to do the same. I've put another 1/2 on top of the original hive (which obviously kept the flying bees), hoping this removes any desire to flee.

 

[BeeNice]

With the swarm that won't go up into a box, have you try a little smoke to start them moving, bit like a 'cattle drive'. I have done this a few times with bees swarms that needed that extra push.

 

[summo]

I would expect others above have basically said 'Why?'
.

yes, and much more politely that yourself. I am grateful for their advice and for steering a novice in the right direction.

You went about this in completely the wrong way....Simple and entirely logical if you consider all the options carefully and not go blundering on blindly.... .

thanks for constructive help

Reading up on demaree for supercedure queen cells might have been a good place to start..

I shall, but I guess that is hindsight and given that I've not even heard the word 'demaree' before it will no doubt help me.

Mutiple emergency queen cells and multiple casts are easily foreseen.
.

you're right and I probably missed some signs when I split them, but there was presumably little I could have done by that stage. The Previous 10 days I was back in the UK on holiday and I split them the first day I returned here.

I am as all will have guessed quite new to this game, having got my first hive 2 years ago. I did a little course in the UK 2-3 years ago prior to moving here and I'm giving it a go as best I can, with a little help over here. But it's mid-summer here and those who aren't away are already on the vodka, so I turned to an internet forum and got loads of useful advice from some and some attitude after the horse has bolted from you.

Incidentally, the swarm is back in a new hive now and I'll let the dust settle, the thunderstorms pass and decide my next move. I might not have the best queens, perfect hives etc.. but I'm slowly learning and expanding both hives and knowledge. It could be that I'm taking the harder route at times, but it's better than no route at all.

Thanks for the help, from those who politely offered it.

 

[oliver90owner]

My apologies for being simply too honest. Little point in saying 'well done', is there?

 

[summo]

My apologies for being simply too honest. Little point in saying 'well done', is there?

nope, but constructive polite help is always received better.

Well done me, perhaps, I've got them in, learnt a little and learning a few more lessons too. It's a little different here I think to my UK course too, whilst bee's lifecycles are of course unchanged, but because we went from permanent below zero degrees C in mid april when winter gave up, to now, 2 months later 20+ degrees C most days and barely dark. Hive numbers, laying, gathering, storing seems to accelerate very quickly. being away for 10 days at the end of May, probably didn't help things in terms of spotting any developing cells.

So in hindsight, if 18days ago, on returning from holiday, I discovered my hive brimming over and some signs of potential swarming in place, what could I have done differently, other than split and hope? false swarm? Or any links to good articles to read?

 

[itma]

... Background. 19 days ago I split one hive into 3. All have been going well. Queen remained laying in 1, cells appeared in the others, be were active and fairly well distributed. All new hives had drawn out frames, and were either 2 brood or brood and a half.

Yesterday - Day 18 from the split. One of the newly queened hives swarmed. There are a few bees remaining in there, but I've to locate a queen. Surely if they were going to swarm it would have been over a week ago?

I'll clarify - I split the original hive 3 ways, so they each got a roughly equally amount of non flying bees, larva and stored honey / pollen. Perhaps I'm just using the wrong terminology.

I follow the 15+3 for luck, but that would presume they used the newest egg to form a queen and that despite going to a new spacious vacant hive, their instinct to flee wasn't dulled. I can only presume that swarm fever was already in action prior to me splitting. ...

Summo, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that the bees would produce one (and only one) queen/queen cell in each of your split sections.
They will probably produce several - only one would be unusual.
And on emerging, some may well depart as 'casts' headed by a virgin queen.

It is important to realise that this has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not they were readying to swarm when you divided the colony!

Queen cells don't have to be started from eggs. Until the egg hatches to a larva it cannot be fed on royal jelly and begin its special development to a queen.
If need be, a QC can be built around a 2 or 3 day old larva.
That means you only have 2 or 3 days before capping, then 8 days before emergence ...
So you could have virgin queen(s) running around in your hive as little as 10 days after taking them away from their mature queen.



I'd suggest that, given the time since your instruction course, it would be a good idea to get a book or two for reference and refreshing the memory!
Among english-language books, the Haynes Beekeeping Manual is accessible (well-illustrated, and written in simple modern language), and not too expensive. Hooper's Guide to Bees and Honey is older, more difficult to understand, and slightly obsolete in places, but highly regarded for insights on what works with bees!

 

[summo]

My apologies for being simply too honest. you seem to be under the mistaken impression that the bees would produce one (and only one) queen/queen cell in each of your split sections.

yeah I follow that. I was more under the impression that the first queen would kill the yet to emerge queens in their cells? Rather than create another split/swarm from the already split hive.

Yes again, I understand that they could use an older larva to turn into a queen, which is why I was a little surprised that they swarmed so longer after the split.

I think now, I will just observe and see how they settle, the numbers and the laying of the queens, but I think merging the poorer ones will be beneficial as weak hives, don't usually survive the long winters here.

Yes, more reading, more learning, more planning and little better timing of my holidays are in order. There is a local bee society and once my Swedish improves I'll be able to get a bit more feedback from their regular meetings etc. So I'm kind of going it alone a little still.

Thanks.

 

[itma]

yeah I follow that. I was more under the impression that the first queen would kill the yet to emerge queens in their cells? Rather than create another split/swarm from the already split hive.

The impression that that can invariably be relied upon to happen is mistaken.

I'd suggest you get hold of a couple of books (by different authors!)
Sooner the better.
You will find more recommendations in the appropriate sections of the forum.
Many UK booksellers will deliver abroad (usually pretty cheaply), if you don't have a UK supply base.


And you seem to have edited together responses from myself and o90o.
You shouldn't expect either of us to be pleased by that!

 

[user 6228]

From my reading of books /literature if you have multiple VQ in a hive the following can happen:
1 Vq kill the other VQ and stays ...
1 Vq kill the other VQ and swarms ...
1 Vq swarms 1vq stays ...
1 Vq swarms then another Vq Swarms and so on ...
Multiple Vq leave in the same swarm ...

does anyone assign probability to these outcomes?