Too late for a new queen?

[Eyeman]

there is enough opportunity for a queen being moved out of the hive or a queen cell built into the comb being overlooked. There is no evidence that it is the queen from the original queen cell.

I'm a regular user of test frames and have a tried and trusted merhod of inspection. Test frames are always marked with drawing pins and are checked first, if no QC'c then other frames are checked for signs of Q+. I always shake the bees off frames so as not to miss early emergency QC's.
When a strong colony decides to build QC's on a test frame, providing the frame had sufficient eggs or young larvae you get many emergency QC's- not easy to overlook when inspecting a week later.
When inserting a test frame, the frame being removed has all the bees shaken back into the hive so little chance of the queen being lost.

 

[The Drone Ranger]

Apology accepted

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[jenkinsbrynmair]

If that makes you happy - so be it.
The last thing I would do would be to apologise for your suspect 'advice' - I'm sure the OP can work that out for himself

 

[Cussword]

Yes, there could be a queen in there - on a brood break,newly mated, virgin or just a dud. Or it could just be one of those colonies that carry on oblivious until it's too late.
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Many times I would not be surprised if the original queen is still there whilst the queen cell left fails and a later one is started.

This is a first!!!!!!

JBM and Beeno having the SAME opinion.


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[jenkinsbrynmair]

Actually no - and totally missing the point.As usual - a bit of smokescreen distracting us from the point
The point being: A queen less colony will not necessarily 'start making queencells' sometimes, even though their survival depends on it they will carry on regardless, just taking each introduced test frame as a welcome boost to the colony and making no attempt to make QC's this does not necessarily mean there is a queen present and making a beginner believe that everything is hunky dory just because they haven't immediately made QC's on the first attempt is wrong.

 

[pargyle]

It may take two, three or more attempts before they finally decide they're in trouble. It's not just a matter of looking in the first time, seeing no QCs then sitting back and relaxing as 'there's a queen in there somewhere'.
It's the kind of disingenuous statement that will have beginners thinking it's all cut and dried at the first take then wondering in a couple of months why their colony has died.

Yes, there could be a queen in there - on a brood break,newly mated, virgin or just a dud. Or it could just be one of those colonies that carry on oblivious until it's too late.

This is exactly the problem - and Beginners should really take note - bees do not always do what the books and the pundits say they will do. Certainly logic and common sense says they OUGHT to ... but they don't. I had a colony last year that I was convinced was queenless ... I'd split and I thought I'd lost the virgin on her mating flight ... 3 test frames and six weeks later - still no queen cells then I see drone brood - I thought, well, that's it - laying workers. I got all set up to combine them with another colony - everything ready - opened the box and there was three full frames of worker brood ! Just when you think you know what they are doing - they do something else.

Finnie would not have waited - he would have had another queen in there long before that ... as it is, she's doing well this year - nice bees, good sized colony and there's honey on the hive. Sometimes you just need a bit of patience ...

 

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi everyone,
One of my four hives has been queenless for about three weeks now, maybe more. I've moved some frames with new eggs from another hive hoping they are going to make a new queen. Is it too late for this procedure or I can still hope for the best?
Thank you.
Marco.

I fear I might have to go and buy a new queen.
Thank you for the advice.
Marco.

Actually no - and totally missing the point.As usual - a bit of smokescreen distracting us from the point
The point being: A queen less colony will not necessarily 'start making queencells' sometimes, even though their survival depends on it they will carry on regardless, just taking each introduced test frame as a welcome boost to the colony and making no attempt to make QC's this does not necessarily mean there is a queen present and making a beginner believe that everything is hunky dory just because they haven't immediately made QC's on the first attempt is wrong.

That is your point but not the point of the thread
We are in mid September
The OP has put in a test frame
The bees may or may not raise a queen cell
If they do they are queenless
If they dont then buying and introducing a queen would be an expensive gamble

I gave the best advice I could to the OP
You on the other hand gave none in your first post and went on to turn the thread into something more about you and your superior knowledge regards test frames
None of which is news to me or anybody else by the way
The point I would suggest is that if bees do start queencells you have a fair chance once they are removed of introducing a queen
If bees dont start queencells then you cant make the case for buying and introducing a queen
I gave you the opportunity to list the circumstances where you disagree with that : None forthcoming
You should go back and read the whole thread without your blinkers on and get things in their proper context

 

[Hivemaker.]

Its September....you'll be lucky to buy a queen now

There are still plenty of queens available from various places if people spend a little time looking for them.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I gave the best advice I could to the OP

You just want to continue an argument made from nothing, If you hadn't been hell bent on that some of us might have had a chance of giving some decent advice not nebulous nothings - not interested - carry on and play with yourself

 

[The Drone Ranger]

You just want to continue an argument made from nothing, If you hadn't been hell bent on that some of us might have had a chance of giving some decent advice not nebulous nothings - not interested - carry on and play with yourself

Not at all in fact the OP asked a further question about combining his hive with another from a friend (which you would have seen if you hadn't hijacked the thread and buried it for your own reasons)
Perhaps you could reply to that question giving the definitive answer



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[Anduril]

Not at all in fact the OP asked a further question about combining his hive with another from a friend (which you would have seen if you hadn't hijacked the thread and buried it for your own reasons)
Perhaps you could reply to that question giving the definitive answer



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If the hive is q+ then combining with another hive is not the answer. The new queen could end up killing the introduced queen, when you look in the hive and see perhaps a marked queen you may think they are still queenless. As JBM and others have said q- colonies do not always draw out queen cells. One hive this year became q- I introduced a test frame and then another, but no queen cells were drawn out. It eventually had DLW more frames added and finally I now have queen cells.

 

[Cussword]

If the hive is q+ then combining with another hive is not the answer. The new queen could end up killing the introduced queen, when you look in the hive and see perhaps a marked queen you may think they are still queenless. As JBM and others have said q- colonies do not always draw out queen cells. One hive this year became q- I introduced a test frame and then another, but no queen cells were drawn out. It eventually had DLW more frames added and finally I now have queen cells.

Not making queen cells from introduced frames of eggs does not mean a hive is queen less.

.

 

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi everyone.
I'm sure they are queenless because I haven't seen eggs for more then a month now. Fortunately a friend of mine is giving me a feisty colony with a queen. She doesn't want it anymore because they are aggressive. I'm planning to put them together and have a stronger colony. What is the best way of doing it? Thank you all.

Here's the question Marco asked
What is the best way ?



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[Anduril]

Here's the question Marco asked
What is the best way ?



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I have already answered it! First of all make sure it is really queenless. If you have read this thread, D R go back to post 17, some bees are taking 6 weeks, if it is Q+ then look for polished cells and telltale royal jelly in the cells and listen to the contented tone when you open up the hive, use only as a guide. Uniting with newspaper and queen excluder could end up with disappointing results if they are Q+, 2 queens fighting and both getting injured, not really a good outcome. I have already helped a local beek who thought their hive was Q-, only to find a laying queen in the hive. 3 weeks is still early. Marco666 if you can get local help a second pair of eyes is always helpful.

 

[Marco666]

How to combine hives?

Could you please tell me what is the best procedure in order to combine two hives. One is the queen less I was talking about, the other is a feisty colony from a friend. One brood box on top of the other with a sheet of magazine paper between the two? is it the right thing to do? Thank you.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Could you please tell me what is the best procedure in order to combine two hives. One is the queen less I was talking about, the other is a feisty colony from a friend. One brood box on top of the other with a sheet of magazine paper between the two? is it the right thing to do? Thank you.

Are you certain it's Q-? a lot of queens go off lay this time of year.
Have you tried a test frame?
What was the result?
If negative, try another test frame
Three to four weeks is way to soon to decide they're Q- unless you get a positive result from the test frame.
The only 'positive' result possible from a test frame is finding queen cells.
Any other result is a maybe.
Even Q- colonies don't always make QC's immediately on given a test frame
Anyone who tells you otherwise is an id!ot
Newspaper not magazine paper and in this instance three or four sheets if you confirm your colony is definitely Q-

 

[Anduril]

Place the feisty colony on top of the queenless colony if you are 100% positive it is Q-. Place the feisty colony nearby the hive. Then in the evening or morning place it on top with new paper in between, have queen excluder holding down the newspaper.
Personally I would ensure the hive is really Q- firstly by checking through the hive, then place frames in pairs, so that if there is a queen she will be in the dark space between 2 frames. Failing that remove the brood box add an empty super or brood box, place on top a queen excluder add another empty box and shake each frame into the top box, now smoke them down into the box below, when the majority are below you may see a queen. If it is Q- do as above with feisty cont.

 

[Marco666]

Thank you.

I've checked today and no Queen cells.
I've now combined the two hives and I will check in few days.
Hopefully everything is going to be OK.
Thank you very much for all your precious advice!
Marco.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I've checked today and no Queen cells.
Marco.

Fingers crossed that one of the queens gets out of the fight unscathed

 

[Anduril]

You have not had much luck this with Q- hives. Just as an aside did you brush off the frames you introduced to look for queen cells, they have a habit of hiding them from you. Also if you brushed every frame you may come across an emerged cell from a few weeks ago. Otherwise good luck with your introduction.