To treat or not to treat...

[ShaunR]

Hi all,

This is my first year of keeping bee’s and approaching that time when everyone says it’s time to treat your bees for varroa.

Now my issue is I’ve not seen one mite or anything at all on the bees or on my inspection tray so the question is should I just leave them?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No - until you gain a little more experience and do a lot of research, treat them
What you see on the inspection board has little to do with the mite load of the colony

 

[Erichalfbee]

Now my issue is I’ve not seen one mite or anything at all on the bees or on my inspection tray so the question is should I just leave them?

If you see mites on bees the colony is in real trouble.
I agree with JBM. Treat, then when you have a season behind you you can explore other options

 

[Midget Gem]

There are a lot of people who do not treat for varroa. I am one of them. It is a contentious issue. Read around the subject and make up your own mind.

 

[BaconWizard]

Hi all,

This is my first year of keeping bee’s and approaching that time when everyone says it’s time to treat your bees for varroa.

Now my issue is I’ve not seen one mite or anything at all on the bees or on my inspection tray so the question is should I just leave them?

Firstly, the only method worth relying-on for getting accurate mite numbers, is an alcohol wash (or there’s a similar method using washing-up liquid)

Whatever you do, is only going to be worth doing in one of the following circumstances:

1) you have lots of colonies spread over a wide area, enough that you are controlling the genetics of the local drone population
2) you are away from anyone else (like 5+ miles in any direction)
Or 3) Everyone else around you is doing the same as you.

There is no point being the only treatment-free beek surrounded by people who treat, nor is it much use being the only person to treat surrounded by lots of untreated colonies.

This is because of both genetic pressure screwing-up any mite-resistant traits you may encounter, and also mite infection between colonies: nobody wants their treated colony to easily get more mites and the diseases they carry, and nobody with a treatment-free regime wants what mites they have to be the double-hard mofo mites that have survived everyone else’s treatments.

I would get involved in your local association, find out what people are doing there and do the same (which will likely be to treat)

Either way, successful treatment-free keeping is going to need knowledge and experience that you don’t yet have imo.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Firstly, the only method worth relying-on for getting accurate mite numbers, is an alcohol wash (or there’s a similar method using washing-up liquid)

A sugar roll is just as accurate and involves no bee killing.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Firstly, the only method worth relying-on for getting accurate mite numbers, is an alcohol wash

no - sugar roll works just as well, with the bonus of it doesn't kill bees

 

[Antipodes]

A sugar roll is just as accurate and involves no bee killing.

Hi Dani,
Do you know if there is a study or perhaps studies that support this please?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi Dani,
Do you know if there is a study or perhaps studies that support this please?

Randy Oliver....somewhere

 

[Antipodes]

Randy Oliver....somewhere

Ok thanks. In this one he says , "Anyway, I really gave the sugar shake a good shot, but was not impressed".

https://scientificbeekeeping.com/refining-the-mite-wash-part-4-comparing-the-release-agents/

 

[WalnutTreeBees]

Firstly, the only method worth relying-on for getting accurate mite numbers, is an alcohol wash (or there’s a similar method using washing-up liquid)

Whatever you do, is only going to be worth doing in one of the following circumstances:

1) you have lots of colonies spread over a wide area, enough that you are controlling the genetics of the local drone population
2) you are away from anyone else (like 5+ miles in any direction)
Or 3) Everyone else around you is doing the same as you.

There is no point being the only treatment-free beek surrounded by people who treat, nor is it much use being the only person to treat surrounded by lots of untreated colonies.

This is because of both genetic pressure screwing-up any mite-resistant traits you may encounter, and also mite infection between colonies: nobody wants their treated colony to easily get more mites and the diseases they carry, and nobody with a treatment-free regime wants what mites they have to be the double-hard mofo mites that have survived everyone else’s treatments.

I would get involved in your local association, find out what people are doing there and do the same (which will likely be to treat)

Either way, successful treatment-free keeping is going to need knowledge and experience that you don’t yet have imo.

I disagree with this, and I have been treatment free for 6 seasons now. I only did two years of treatment before that, but I started with 4 hives not 1!

I currently have 11 hives at the bottom of the garden. I took 10 into winter last year and came out with 7. I am in an area with no shortage of beekeepers (south Northants), including a bee farmer just down the road, no idea about their treatment status though, but the bee farmer will of course not be treatment free. I am certainly not in control of any local bee genetics.

I have never done any form of mite counting either - survival of the fittest and all that... I simply stopped treating and let nature take its course. All of my bees are local stock and there are plenty of wild colonies around here.

Having said that, going treatment free with 1 hive is a probably a coin toss whether they survive. You would be better off starting with 3 or 4 so that you can easily rebuild any losses. Best way to do that is to get some bait hives out next year (I had 3 garden bait hives filled this season) and try and collect local swarms.

 

[Swarm]

Others are doing similar ....
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/ill-kick-this-off-with-chriss-post.54698/page-2

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ok thanks. In this one he says , "Anyway, I really gave the sugar shake a good shot, but was not impressed".

https://scientificbeekeeping.com/refining-the-mite-wash-part-4-comparing-the-release-agents/

Oh well. Wrong again.
Apart from being unimpressed did he say there was a significant difference?
I guess it’s easier to do an alcohol wash in the commercial field as you can keep reusing the same alcohol.
I don’t count mites any more

 

[Antipodes]

Oh well. Wrong again.
Apart from being unimpressed did he say there was a significant difference?
I guess it’s easier to do an alcohol wash in the commercial field as you can keep reusing the same alcohol.
I don’t count mites any more

Comparing the results in the two graphs in the report I linked above and reading his other comments, I would say so.

 

[BaconWizard]

I disagree with this, and I have been treatment free for 6 seasons now. I only did two years of treatment before that, but I started with 4 hives not 1!

I currently have 11 hives at the bottom of the garden. I took 10 into winter last year and came out with 7. I am in an area with no shortage of beekeepers (south Northants), including a bee farmer just down the road, no idea about their treatment status though, but the bee farmer will of course not be treatment free. I am certainly not in control of any local bee genetics.

I have never done any form of mite counting either - survival of the fittest and all that... I simply stopped treating and let nature take its course. All of my bees are local stock and there are plenty of wild colonies around here.

Having said that, going treatment free with 1 hive is a probably a coin toss whether they survive. You would be better off starting with 3 or 4 so that you can easily rebuild any losses. Best way to do that is to get some bait hives out next year (I had 3 garden bait hives filled this season) and try and collect local swarms.

What are your losses overall, throughout the last 6 years?

 

[rolande]

Oh well. Wrong again.
Apart from being unimpressed did he say there was a significant difference?
I guess it’s easier to do an alcohol wash in the commercial field as you can keep reusing the same alcohol.
I don’t count mites any more

My memory is unusually a little vague on this bit I'm sure he made some comment along the lines that alcohol wash is better at the National last year, he certainly made a point along the lines that the loss of three hundred bees to an alcohol wash was nothing to worry about, I'm rather butchering his words but he was blunt enough.

Edit: the varroa/adult drone research coming from Zac Lamas may also be of great importance regarding the matter irrespective of the medium used if there's a good drone population at the time

 

[Markthebuilder]

Oh well. Wrong again.
Apart from being unimpressed did he say there was a significant difference?
I guess it’s easier to do an alcohol wash in the commercial field as you can keep reusing the same alcohol.
I don’t count mites any more

No not wrong a sugar wash may only release about 50% of mites from the bees if you give them a general role [notshake]. So double the count to give you an accurate reflection of load.

The real question is how much this load has reduced after treatment

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

a sugar wash may only release about 50% of mites

so if that's the case, what's the big deal? whatever figure you have, you just double it for the actual infestation