To insulate or not?

[Galaxy55]

Hi
Do you need to insulate hives during the winter months?

 

[dpearce4]

hi galaxy when you say insulate could you explain a bit more of what you mean?

I put a piece of celotex between the crown board and the roof, and the guy whos apiary I took over always used to use old blankets and he was in his 70s.
The new roofs I am making have the celotex imbedded in it so it will be there all year.

But other Beeks round here don't use anything at all. I will say I am on the coast so don't have such cold winters as inland may have.

 

[Galaxy55]

Just that I have seen hives wrapped in what looks like roofing felt, insulated with polystyrene and some with not insulation.

 

[Tom Bick]

Some will say a strong national hive will over winter fine without insulation and that is without doubt correct.

But I like to insulate over the crown board and most of my rooves are permanently insulated not all as I think solid floors are ok and have a couple then the traditional roof perhaps comes into its own.

If the colony is weak then insulated dummy boards are good to reduce the space the bees occupy and insulation over the crown board needed.

For me I have seen the benefits of insulation over the crown board and would recommend it for even strong hives.

 

[dpearce4]

that sounds a very American way of doing it micheal palmer from Vermont posted some pics of his hives done that way with explanations about why its done like that in this thread http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27155

I think more and more people are going poly as a way to insulate the colony all year and derekm is the guy best to chat to about this as he is doing some very interesting work about hive temp, heat loss and other things.

 

[MuswellMetro]

like Tom I would suggest a slab of 1" or 2" insulation under the roof and above a crown board especial if you have a small colony of non native bees

Unless you know what you are doing with side insulation you can end up with a damp hive, and that's bad for bees, cold does not kill a colony but condensation can

if you have your Varroa board out and the mesh floor open then that is enough ventilation, even Roger Patterson a BBKA old timer admitted that recently, however only reluctantly conceded on insulation as he is of the let winter cull weaker hives brigade

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Hi
Do you need to insulate hives during the winter months?

"need" is debatable and over in the main forum section gets a lot of discussion. A strong colony may be perfectly able to get through the winter but since the bees will consume stores to create heat to replace that which leaks out of the hive it follows that reducing the heat loss reduces the rate of food consumption. This leaves more available for spring brood rearing and permits quicker expansion and foraging.
Some keepers don't insulate, some use quilts, pillows or fabric over the crownboard, under the roof. Some use modern materials such as expanded polystyrene or kingspan as these are cleaner and more convenient to deal with although may be "delicate" to handle. Any thickness of insulation is better than none but the law of diminishing returns kicks in when deciding which you are going to use.
I have made up a 1" thick kingspan drop over cover for a 14 x 12 double brood box, a 1" thick expanded polystyrene drop over box with plywood overskin (to keep the chickens from destroying it) to fit a single 14 x 12 brood box, and a 1" thick kingspan with plywood overskin for a third 14 x 12 brood box. In addition I have a WBC hive which I have given two 1" expanded polystyrene sheets on top of the crown board and rely on the outer skin for protection. In all cases the hives have open omf and closed tops. All this is to gain some personal idea of how the hives come out of the winter with the different levels of protection.
It's a judgement call which only you can make but there are extremes of weather, extremes of opinion and cost implications to bear in mind.

 

[REDWOOD]

Not necessary but the better the insulation the less food/stores are consumption in winter,
you could put it another way it's not going to harm you bees putting insulation on.

 

[dpearce4]

Not necessary but the better the insulation the less food/stores are consumption in winter,
you could put it another way it's not going to harm you bees putting insulation on.

On the flip side of that though redwood is that if the bees haven't used enough stores over the winter they cant build up quickly due to lack of space and if you put a super on to early you may find the bees are moving sugar stores up into it to get the space.

 

[victor meldrew]

before the advent of the omf I didn't use insulation!
I do now
VM

 

[REDWOOD]

On the flip side of that though redwood is that if the bees haven't used enough stores over the winter they cant build up quickly due to lack of space and if you put a super on to early you may find the bees are moving sugar stores up into it to get the space.

That is very true, well flipped

 

[Gilberdyke John]

That is very true, well flipped

Surely one of the "duties" of a bee keeper is management of the hive and includes moving of frames/swapping with empty ones to ensure brood space IS available for laying? If only as part of swarm control. It's a balance between starving bees and a bit of excess stores to deal with in the springtime.

 

[user 6228]

Insulation, bees natural habitat is a tree, so if a tree scores a perfect 10 what do hives score?

wooden hives: 2

wood with top insulation: 4

poly: 5

50mm kingspan drop over bonnet or 50 mm kingspan :9 to 10

However if you are a new beekeeper, the other question is what support and knowledge is there out there in your BKA to help you?

wooden hives: 10

wood with top insulation: 9

poly: 2-3

50mm kingspan drop overbonnet or 50 mm kingspan hive: 0


Given this I would suggest a begginner starts with a top insulated wooden or a poly ( if you dont mind working out some differences yourself). 2nd year or 3rd year try going further with one or two your new swarms.

 

[enrico]

One of the main reasons for insulating is to stop condensation. Damp is one of the biggest killers of bees over winter. Years ago we used to ventilate top and bottom to ensure no condensation occurred, now with the advent of good insulation and OMF floors we can stop damp by stopping the hot and cold temperatures mixing and therefore causing damp. The obvious place is where the hot air gathers at the roof. Even a piece of polystyrene half an inch thick will do the job! From there you start going to insulation to keep in warmth, that means less use of stores so less feeding, less panic in long cold winters etc. the choice is yours.....me? I don't insulate at all, my bees have to be tuff to live with me!
E

 

[Heather]

I was lucky, found a whole roll of roof insulation in a builders skip ( new bee keepers- always check builders skips - a wealth of material- girls, do the helpless act and the builders load your car for you )

Each hive has a dollop of roof insulation, packet into black bin liner, on top of each crown board with fondant snugly underneath bag but on top of crown board - cheap as chips!

Once saw a hive with black polythene wrapped around- what a wet mess it was. So always gone down the roof insulation only. Not lost bees yet in the winter because of a chill problem.

 

[itma]

I was lucky, found a whole roll of roof insulation in a builders skip ( new bee keepers- always check builders skips - a wealth of material- girls, do the helpless act and the builders load your car for you )

Each hive has a dollop of roof insulation, packet into black bin liner, on top of each crown board with fondant snugly underneath bag but on top of crown board - cheap as chips!

To get the same effectiveness as 50mm of building insulation board, you need 100mm thickness of 'wool' insulation.
Kingspan/Celotex/Recticel/Xtratherm/etc really are twice as effective as insulators.
However, they aren't flexible for shaping around feeders.
But they do cut easily with a breadknife!

Once saw a hive with black polythene wrapped around- what a wet mess it was. So always gone down the roof insulation only. Not lost bees yet in the winter because of a chill problem.

Draping a hive with polythene in winter would more likely be about woodpecker-proofing than insulation.
If Green Woodpeckers are around your apiary, you should, in winter, protect your hives from them by some means. (But that's a different subject!)

 

[alanf]

Do you need to insulate hives during the winter months?

This is one of those beekeeping questions where the practice varies. There are many beekeepers who have been doing it for years who never use insulation. The extreme position is to leave the mesh floor open, leave the escape/feeding holes in the crown board uncovered and even add extra ventilation at the top by raising the crownboard on matchsticks. A poll on here a couple of years ago showed that although you see this advocated in some books and BBKA articles it's very much a minority position among active users of this forum.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=52

Only 25% use top ventilation. 60% use insulation on top of the crown board. You can choose to do it whichever way you like, but the largest grouping on here will use an open mesh floor but at the top they close the crown board, cover any holes and add insulation.

 

[Finman]

.

Question is not about "do others use insulation", but question is, are you going to take advantage from insulation.
I know very well, that insulation is usefull in your climate. But it does not help, if guys start a hive with too small colony, make mesh floor to small nucs and over ventilate hives etc.

Insulation does not make you better beekeeper, if you do not understand the whole thing. It is same in USA. No understanding. And then it goes to extremes.


One guy insulated only north wall of the hive because cold comes from north.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Galaxy asked a simple question about insulation - I'm sure as he gains experience and confidence the rest will follow.
I think alanf's post encapsulates the whole thing in a nutcase

 

[itma]

Hi
Do you need to insulate hives during the winter months?

As has been stated, you don't strictly need to fit insulation.
Colonies survive without.

However, many of us judge that decent insulation improves the colony's chances of survival and should give a stronger colony in Spring, better able to expand quickly and in all probability having used less stores during the Winter.