Tips for moving from 5 frame Nucs to full size brood box

[lizzie-drippin]

Hello All

I was wondering what tips you have for moving my overwintered 5 frame nucs back into 12 frame wooden brood boxes please?

I did a first inspection today and the nucs are rammed with bees and brood (to the point where they are rearing brood up into the miller feeder entrance and into the fondant bag.

1. Is the above a sign that they are ready to move up already?

2. Whenever it is that I move them into brood boxes, should I keep the frames together and add undrawn frames to the outside (beyond the frames with stores)? I am very short of drawn frames for the new season so I am worried this will severely slow their expansion.

2. Should I continue to feed them when they move up?

3. I have 1 colony that overwintered in a wooden brood box because it was strong going into Autumn. When I looked in this today, every seam was full of bees. There were eggs and brood of all ages throughout and again, a lack of space (brood into fondant bag, below frame) also a lot of capped drone cells. However, there was also a nearly capped queen cell (with a grub inside). I couldn't see the existing queen. Would you split this colony and move the capped queen cell? The existing queen is a 2020 queen and has been one of my best.

I would appreciate any advice. I'm reasonably experienced now (5 years in) but still get a bit worried about certain decisions that need to be made.

Many thanks

Lizzie

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm moving four as soon as weather permits. Keep the brood frames intact and put a frame of foundation each side of the brood nest between it and a store frame. No need to feed if they have access to forage. Everything should be ramping up food wise now. If you are using wooden National's they have 11 frames not 12.
With the other colony put another brood box underneath and do it now. I'd leave the QC alone.

 

[lizzie-drippin]

I'm moving four as soon as weather permits. Keep the brood frames intact and put a frame of foundation each side of the brood nest between it and a store frame. No need to feed if they have access to forage. Everything should be ramping up food wise now. If you are using wooden National's they have 11 frames not 12.
With the other colony put another brood box underneath and do it now. I'd leave the QC alone.

So it’s best not to fill the brood box and use dummy boards after the outer stores? Or is it ok just to fill with frames of foundation?

also, for the brood box underneath the one with a queen cell, I presume you mean fill the box with frames of foundation? And don’t move the frame with the QC down?

many thanks for your kind reoly

LD

 

[ericbeaumont]

rearing brood up into the miller feeder entrance and into the fondant bag.
Is the above a sign that they are ready to move up already?

Sure is, Lizzie!

keep the frames together and add undrawn frames to the outside (beyond the frames with stores)?

Add frames to the edge of the nest, not the box. As temps are set to rise I suggest you consider adding add a frame into the middle of the nest; check a week later and if it's drawn and laid, repeat. This gives young bees work to do and produces space for the queen to lay.

very short of drawn frames for the new season so I am worried this will severely slow their expansion.

Don't worry, the colony has told you that it's ready to expand and bees will get on with the job of drawing foundation.

Should I continue to feed them when they move up?

Is there nectar coming in? What is in flower for bees in your area? If nothing, feed but not excessively. My bet is that fuel is coming in that bees will use to feed brood and draw comb.

a nearly capped queen cell (with a grub inside

Rapid expansion + congestion = swarming, but perhaps a spring supersedure is underway? One QC suggests supersedure, more than two or three, swarming.

Where are you in the country? Location will make a significant difference to your options.

Sometimes bees can be persuaded to accept extra space rather than swarm if the conditions for swarming are less than ideal.

If you're down South and all is cosy, doube brood is an option: put four or so frames of open brood in the centre of the new top box, close up the remainder of the brood combs under it in the bottom box, and fill either side of both boxes with whatever you have - comb or foundation.

If you're up North and all is chilly, put a brood box with combs/foundation under the current one.

Check a week later: if the foundation has been ignored you can be pretty sure they intend to swarm and you will have to take action. If drawn and laid and the weather is good, add another frame or two of foundation into the nest.

These actions will expand the nest sideways and vertically and give the queen space to lay; do not allow the nest to become congested again with fresh nectar, so add a super if necessary. Check for extra QCs and have a swarm plan ready.

 

[ericbeaumont]

When I looked in this today, every seam was full of bees. There were eggs and brood of all ages throughout and again, a lack of space (brood into fondant bag, below frame) also a lot of capped drone cells

best not to fill the brood box and use sunny boards after the outer stores?

Lizzie, you must give them space, for bees and brood and nectar (which uses far more comb space than honey) so not only must you fill this box with frames, but the next box you give must also have frames.

While you're there, take off the fondant, and if you use a dummy board, put it at the end of the box.

 

[lizzie-drippin]

Sure is, Lizzie!

Add frames to the edge of the nest, not the box. As temps are set to rise I suggest you consider adding add a frame into the middle of the nest; check a week later and if it's drawn and laid, repeat. This gives young bees work to do and produces space for the queen to lay.

So I shouldn’t just add frames of foundation either side until the 11 frame brood box is full? Use dummy boards to keep it small still and gradually increase size?

Rapid expansion + congestion = swarming, but perhaps a spring supersedure is underway? One QC suggests supersedure, more than two or three, swarming.

Where are you in the country? Location will make a significant difference to your options.

Sometimes bees can be persuaded to accept extra space rather than swarm if the conditions for swarming are less than ideal.

If you're down South and all is cosy, doube brood is an option: put four or so frames of open brood in the centre of the new top box, close up the remainder of the brood combs under it in the bottom box, and fill either side of both boxes with whatever you have - comb or foundation.

If you're up North and all is chilly, put a brood box with combs/foundation under the current one.

Check a week later: if the foundation has been ignored you can be pretty sure they intend to swarm and you will have to take action. If drawn and laid and the weather is good, add another frame or two of foundation into the nest.

These actions will expand the nest sideways and vertically and give the queen space to lay; do not allow the nest to become congested again with fresh nectar, so add a super if necessary. Check for extra QCs and have a swarm plan ready.

I’m in the South and the hives are sheltered and out of the wind.

so don’t move the QC up into a top box, leave it where it is? The old queen may be still there huashi for by your g brood and eggs. So could I split off the QC and some of the bees into a nuc?

 

[ericbeaumont]

Use dummy boards to keep it small still and gradually increase size?

You must allow the nuc to build quickly so don't try and restrict expansion. By all means use a dummy board to go from six to eight to ten to - oh, that was quick! Two weeks and the brood box will be full.

so don’t move the QC up into a top box, leave it where it is? The old queen may be still there

If you double brood the colony and divide the nest vertically, put the frame with the QC in the middle of the new top box where it's warmest.

If you double brood the colony by adding a new box under the existing, leave the QC where it is in the old top box.

You must establish the status of the old queen. Are eggs present in quantity, and is the pattern good?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

DO NOT add a frame of foundation to the middle of the brood nest, especially at this time of year.
Dani's advice is good - with the nuc, I would:
Put a frame of foundation against the side wall of the hive, then the frames from the nuc (in the same order as they were in the nuc, then a frame of foundation the other side, then (at this time of year)dummy down and insulate the gap, from then on, just add a frame of foundation to the one side towards the middle of the box, do this as soon as they are well on the way to drawing out the last frame you added. I always just add foundation on one side of the nest, this means that the whole workforce can concentrate their efforts on one side.
If the outside frames of the nuc are just all stores, always keep those frames on the outer edge of the whole setup. (ie, when you start, frame of stores, frame of foundation, brood nest, frame of foundation, frame of stores, dummy.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So I shouldn’t just add frames of foundation either side until the 11 frame brood box is full? Use dummy boards to keep it small still and gradually increase size?

yes, you should, at this time of the year with weather still a bit random, it's the wisest move, as I said in my last post I would actually only add an extra frame on the side away from the side of the box after the initial move.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Putting a frame of foundation in the middle of a big colony can be useful. But into a nuc? No I wouldn’t.

 

[Arfermo]

Hello All

I was wondering what tips you have for moving my overwintered 5 frame nucs back into 12 frame wooden brood boxes please?

I did a first inspection today and the nucs are rammed with bees and brood (to the point where they are rearing brood up into the miller feeder entrance and into the fondant bag.

1. Is the above a sign that they are ready to move up already?

2. Whenever it is that I move them into brood boxes, should I keep the frames together and add undrawn frames to the outside (beyond the frames with stores)? I am very short of drawn frames for the new season so I am worried this will severely slow their expansion.

2. Should I continue to feed them when they move up?

3. I have 1 colony that overwintered in a wooden brood box because it was strong going into Autumn. When I looked in this today, every seam was full of bees. There were eggs and brood of all ages throughout and again, a lack of space (brood into fondant bag, below frame) also a lot of capped drone cells. However, there was also a nearly capped queen cell (with a grub inside). I couldn't see the existing queen. Would you split this colony and move the capped queen cell? The existing queen is a 2020 queen and has been one of my best.

I would appreciate any advice. I'm reasonably experienced now (5 years in) but still get a bit worried about certain decisions that need to be made.

Many thanks

Lizzie

As Dani says, national boxes are designed for 11 frames and by using castellations you don't any need dummy boards clogging the space up either. In fact in some supers it could be useful to use 10 slot castellations in order to increase the crop?

 

[ericbeaumont]

But into a nuc? No I wouldn’t.

Did it five times last Wednesday. All drawn and laid now.

DO NOT add a frame of foundation to the middle of the brood nest, especially at this time of year.

Maybe not in Wales, but down South colonies are moving ahead. Last week I went to an Essex apiary and gave a third box to doubles and upgraded all the nucs.

Management decisions must be based on weather, income and colony status, not hard and fast rules.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Lizzie. Can you put your location in your profile

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Management decisions must be based on weather, income and colony status, not hard and fast rules.

but we were replying to a beginner, and you gave advice based on scanty (at best) information and totally disregarded the cautionary principle.

 

[Swarm]

Knowing your location helps a lot for those offering advice as some areas are advanced compared with others. I'm in South Wales and I have a similar situation here with a six frame over Wintered nuc, they were very full two weeks ago. I've not lifted a frame yet, the weather was set to be warm enough for a quick swap over, circumstances meant I missed that opportunity so I really could do with even an hour of warm sunshine so I can get it done. They will go into the hive on nine frames with packers to dummy the space. Forecast here is pretty poor so three extra combs will bo OK for now and at least provides them with the space they need.

 

[ericbeaumont]

we were replying to a beginner

Lizzie has had bees for five years so may not describe herself as a beginner!

Given that her nuc and colony are both rammed and the weather down here is mild, double brooding and spreading the brood a little is a good option.

Your suggestions in post 8 for upgrading the nuc are equally valid.

Up to Lizzie to decide, based on queen status and all the rest.

Down here it's going to be 16C+ from Monday; we'd all better get ready...

 

[Antipodes]

Lizzie has had bees for five years so may not describe herself as a beginner!

Given that her nuc and colony are both rammed and the weather down here is mild, double brooding and spreading the brood a little is a good option.

Your suggestions in post 8 for upgrading the nuc are equally valid.

Up to Lizzie to decide, based on queen status and all the rest.

Down here it's going to be 16C+ from Monday; we'd all better get ready...

Yes, in post #1 (despite posting in the beginners section), Lizzie says "I'm reasonably experienced now (5 years in)..."

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm desperate too move four on. Hoping I can get away with it on Saturday quickly

 

[lizzie-drippin]

Dear All

thanks for all your responses. I’m in the Greater London area.

Indeed, I’m not a newbie newbie but there is always something to learn and reassurance regarding upsizing the nucs to
Brood boxes is great.

Still a little unclear about the overwintered brood box with the QC though, although I couldn’t see the incumbent queen there were eggs and young larvae. So if I split into a top box and move the QC up, should I put a Queen excluder between the two brood boxes to be safe? Or just let them battle it out if she is still there when the new queen emerges?

thanks again for your help and advice.

LD

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Lizzie has had bees for five years so may not describe herself as a beginner

but posted in the beginners section, thus the advice should have been aimed at the reader