Thornes newsletter and small cell

[SDM]

If say something often with enough conviction you will get people to follow anything that has a shred of plausibility. The group will then reaffirm their beliefs together and it will take time and and overwhelming evidence to remove the support.

X 10 if it's something they want to believe.

 

[Finman]

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However, my plan is now, that I arrange my all hives broodless at same time during main flow. .Then I trickle the colonies. Bees will rear winter bees on clear table.(COLOS system).

I know that it is the most easy job.

I have discussed with guys, that nowadays normal mite treatment is not enough, which was enough 20 years ago with Apistan and with Perizin. Something new must be done.

 

[Michael Palmer]

There is a lot of bashing going on, but seems to me that nobody so far has posted actual experience with small cell combs.

Bashing? Hardly. The misleading dogma spread by one Arizona beekeeper and her internet guru disciples is damaging to our industry. Personally, I don't need to experiment with small cell. I've watched enough as folks drink the kool-aid and lose their bees. When Bush says the things he does, about Seeley et. al., I can't sit idle and watch what happens. Who's bashing whom. Remember, I travel North America talking to beekeeping groups in most every state. I talk to the people. I hear their stories, and when I speak out about the dogma coming out of the TF camp, the audience breaks into applause. You tell me why.

Now, FP, I have respect for your work. Nothing in this thread was aimed at you. In a previous thread, last year, you again claimed TF bashing. You posted your numbers and I applaud you for that. You're the only one who ever has, and so I watch what you post. As I said at the time, if I made a 30-40 lb average crop, as you do, I would be out of the business and 3-4 people would be looking for a job. I hope you can understand that.

But, as long as that group continues to post their dogma, without support, and as long as the real bashing is coming from that group, I will continue to speak out.

 

[user 6228]

Bashing? Hardly. The misleading dogma spread by one Arizona beekeeper and her internet guru disciples is damaging to our industry. Personally, I don't need to experiment with small cell. I've watched enough as folks drink the kool-aid and lose their bees. When Bush says the things he does, about Seeley et. al., I can't sit idle and watch what happens. Who's bashing whom. Remember, I travel North America talking to beekeeping groups in most every state. I talk to the people. I hear their stories, and when I speak out about the dogma coming out of the TF camp, the audience breaks into applause. You tell me why.

Now, FP, I have respect for your work. Nothing in this thread was aimed at you. In a previous thread, last year, you again claimed TF bashing. You posted your numbers and I applaud you for that. You're the only one who ever has, and so I watch what you post. As I said at the time, if I made a 30-40 lb average crop, as you do, I would be out of the business and 3-4 people would be looking for a job. I hope you can understand that.

But, as long as that group continues to post their dogma, without support, and as long as the real bashing is coming from that group, I will continue to speak out.

TF camp? got it "Treatment Free"

 

[Finman]

You get one long near continuous flow from late May to fall.
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You have not undestood much what I have written.

There is no flow in May. Bees eate all what they get. New bees start to born at the end of May. At sa,me time all winter bees die. No surplus in May.

In August all flowers are off. Plants prepare themselves for winter.

Flow begins about 20.6 and ends 25.7. Then there is a flow from gardens and dandelion first week of July.

Altogether 5-6 weeks. But weather is normally so that bees can fly 2-4 weeks. Other weeks are rainy or too dry.

If day temp is under 20C, bees do not get surplus.

Why I have good flows. I move my hives according flows. Pastures do not come to my home yard.

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You have everything better than I have, but you do not get honey.
.You use wrong your brains.
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[Fusion_power]

Bashing? Hardly. The misleading dogma spread by one Arizona beekeeper and her internet guru disciples is damaging to our industry. Personally, I don't need to experiment with small cell.

I have a lot of respect for what you do making a living with bees. Please keep an open mind to the possibility there are nuances to beekeeping that neither of us have considered.

To state that you do not need to experiment with small cell can be supported by saying that there are several studies done by competent beekeepers Seeley, Berry, etc. These support saying there is no benefit from small cell comb on varroa populations. What I pointed out earlier is that there is an advantage which is in spring buildup. If I had not tried small cell, I would not know this. Indirectly, this is a benefit to a colony because they can build up much faster than varroa can reproduce during that two month period.

I can see a potential use. Almond pollination requires huge colonies in February. It is difficult to get a colony strong enough to be an effective pollination unit that early in the year. Most beekeepers adapt by moving bees to deep south winter locations and feeding heavily in December and January. What if there were enough benefit from using small cell and narrow frames to increase the average number of brood frames by 2 in time for almond pollination? Beekeepers are paid per frame of brood when they go into the almonds. Adding 2 frames of brood would increase pollination fees by $20 per additional frame. Gaining an extra $40 per colony for relatively minor changes in hardware and no major changes in operation would seem like a pretty good option. Obviously, this would have to be tested on a large enough scale to prove the benefit before anyone would change their methods of beekeeping. It is possible that the way beekeepers are preparing for almonds is already efficient enough that the queens are laying at their maximum by the time they get into the almonds. In this case, there would be no benefit.


finman, I thought you had a near crop failure last year because of near continuous rain. I know you move your bees to good pastures, but have you considered that they can't make honey if those pastures are all wet? May is your last month with no nectar coming in, but it is your critical buildup month. I see your point about having only 2 months to make a crop of honey. It is very tough on the bees... and the beekeeper.

 

[bpmurray]

To be completely correct, you should have said that there may be an advantage in spring buildup. Your experience falls into the classification of an anecdote and the plural of anecdotes is not evidence.

What's really needed here, and perhaps it should be suggested to the Reading researchers, is properly constructed research that measures if this is the case. It's impossible to say if your experience is a generic advantage to small cell foundation, or if it's just associated with something else about your hives, and that's the kind of thing that such research can determine.

From my point of view, if there's no peer-reviewed research to support the idea, it just ain't so.

 

[Poly Hive]

I use several techniques which work very well for me which to my ken have never been proven or other wise by research.

I learnt them from two excellent beekeepers and they have stood the test of time very well.

Life is too short to wait on academic papers and for me experience is far more important.

PH

 

[Finman]

but have you considered that they can't make honey if those pastures are all wet?.

Yes, I have considered. If pastures are wet or dry, I do not put hives to such places.

 

[Finman]

Life is too short to wait on academic papers

PH

First I did not understand what that means...

In academic work place you cannot do what ever. Somebody, or a fund group evaluates what you are planned to do. Then he gives money, that you can execute it or he does not give.

Then it takes 3 years in field works. One year in analyzing. Now 5 years is gone.

But luckily I do not know what they are doing and I do not need to wait the results.

Non academid guys do something in one month and then they are ready to write their results. And internet is full of these writigs.
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[Fusion_power]

What's really needed here, and perhaps it should be suggested to the Reading researchers, is properly constructed research that measures if this is the case.

Fair enough. Does anyone have a way to get in touch with the researchers?

PH, the things I learned from a commercial queen breeder and past president of the American Bee Breeders Association cannot be written in a book. The way he handled bees was a combination of minimum smoke, minimum disruption of the colony, and always achieving the result he wanted in minimum time. When he slowed down enough to talk about what he was seeing and doing, I hung on every word. It is strange to think that was 40 years ago now. Maybe you could share a bit about these techniques?

 

[Hunajavelho]

One of the facebook groups I'm on don't treat and there are endless posts of pictures of dead hives - it's a little depressing.

I've never cared how people keep bees, if people don't want to treat that's up to them. I do, however, object to people making a living selling snake oil and at the same time pretending the science that supports other views is somehow tainted by 'big [insert industry here].

Yes, the TF-group on FB doomed.
Every week someone posts a pic of a dead hive asking why it died...?
- they come up with all kinds of reasons for ex. freezing, starvation or whatever, but never do they accept the fact that Varroa killed the hive in one way or another, yet the pics of comb is obvious proof of highly varroa infested hive and cause o death. Yet they ignore this simple fact right in front of their eyes!

 

[domino]

Yes, the TF-group on FB doomed.

It is the group of doom. I'm always amazed that someone will inevetably point out that people can reuse the comb in bait hives.

These people do give a bad name to treatment free beekeepers who use interventions to keep mite levels down - maybe they should rename it care-free?

 

[user 6228]

how many of the TF implement strict bio security and minimum spacing between hives e.g. more than 10m between colonies.
TF in any species needs "ideal conditions" strict bio-security and low density

 

[Michael Palmer]

the plural of anecdotes is not evidence.

Good one. I'll have to remember that.

 

[Finman]

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Not to mention freedom of religion.
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[MuswellMetro]

See attached, the pdf states that the statement they use that bees naturally used 4.9mm in the past is a load of popy cock and is based on a mathematical error

 

[Poly Hive]

I am planning on making a video fusion-power as it is tricky to describe.

I will pop it up on youtube hopefully later this year.

The trouble over here is a large group are taught as beginners one of the tricks I practice is utter sacrilege and they are taught this as in the hands of the idiot it is dangerous. However in competent hands it is very positive.

PH

 

[Little John]

See attached, the pdf states that the statement they use that bees naturally used 4.9mm in the past is a load of popy cock and is based on a mathematical error

Well - I've been running foundationless for quite some time now, and my bees draw 4.9-5.0 mm, so that would appear to be some kind of default 'natural' size. I don't particularly want them to draw that size - they just do.

I also don't have any problems with Varroa - but I put that down to an annual winter dose of VOA, and a paucity of other beekeepers in my immediate area, and not the cell size - but, I suppose there's always an outside chance it could be. Not sure I really care, 'cause I don't have a Varroa problem.
LJ