Thornes newsletter and small cell

[fatshark]

I have never seen such mentioning.

Not Tom Bick, but a thread started by him and contribution from pargyle

PS Should have added ... you contributed to that thread.

 

[Into the lions den]

Why did they have loses, was it becaseu they stopped treating?

Just back in from the football match and saw this thread had misunderstood what I meant. Yes there were of course the issues of the bees being lost but what I meant was huge FINANCIAL losses.

Its no small hit to rewax your entire outfit following a laudable ideal but if you are on any scale this runs to tens of thousands of pounds/dollars once you factor in everything including labour.

Then it fails and your bees are struggling so you suffer depressed harvest(s) and also then have to take another big money hit to rectify you error rewaxing again.

Just the rewaxing alone.....on say 200 hives...its 1000 boxes or so? So 10,000 sheets foundation....twice. At international foundation prices that 14000 just for starters.

Labour? From a box of combs to cut out until a box of newly waxed frames takes a minimum of 20 mins by hand methods (and most will take more than that) so three an hour.....again twice, so at 10.00 hr that's 3.33...twice. Probably about 7K.......

So you are already at over 20K....before any factors related to the fact it just does not work are taken into account.

Two folk I know *from this forum* have estimated that listening to the Arizona bombardment, and drinking their bathwater cost them 40,000 and 70,000 respectively. I honestly don't know why there has not bee a major lawsuit over this deliberate misleading of people. I have been truly surprised at the scale and apparent experience of some of those who followed it.

To me there was a real case for serious animal cruelty charges for the number of colonies (thousands) just allowed to die to follow a doctrine.

 

[domino]

Just back in from the football match and saw this thread had misunderstood what I meant. Yes there were of course the issues of the bees being lost but what I meant was huge FINANCIAL losses.

Thanks.

 

[chrisb]

I am sorry, I can not truly get my head around why anyone let alone a business person would wish to put so so much at risk, especially when it involves living creature on a concept without prior tests within there own constraints. and also on a scaly that If or more when it goes south can be put right with little cost and time with no losses

 

[Eyeman]

Note when Mr. Bush is confronted by a couple posters about his winter losses, he comes up with ridiculous excuses.

or gets his guitar out and 'sings' a song!

 

[user 6228]

Of course. This small cell dogma is a faith based beekeeping approach. Every study ever done has shown that small cell in european bee doesn't control varroa. Unfortunately for those that drink the Kool-Aid, their bees are dead in the spring, or so weak as to be non-productive.

Just as an example of what kind of rubbish is being promulgated online, by the gurus of small cell beekeeping, I've included this thread from BeeSource.com.

Note when Mr. Bush is confronted by a couple posters about his winter losses, he comes up with ridiculous excuses.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?318268-Belief-in-Beekeeping&highlight=wright+brothers

its called observer bias.... debunking it is hard, I remember a Uni experiment in physics
you were supposed to get the graph a straight line to go through the origin, I came up with a more accurate way or recording the results... my graph didnt go through the origin, nowhere near, I got low marks, it took another student using my method, a gal with a "nice smile", to convince the supervisor that he was wrong, she got high marks...

 

[Michael Palmer]

I honestly don't know why there has not bee a major lawsuit over this deliberate misleading of people. I have been truly surprised at the scale and apparent experience of some of those who followed it.

The problem is that it's a faith based approach to beekeeping. The Arizona High Priestess and her disciples will make great claims to sign up new converts, but never have numbers to back up their claims. Folks are free to believe what they want, and she's not selling anything. To bad so many have to go through loss after loss before giving up. Several of her group have stayed here. Nice enough people, but their dogma is dangerous. I've presented at three of their conventions, but no more. There is so much rubbish being presented that I either be rude and speak up...which I would never do, or walk out. Which I did. I mean really. When someone tells you, with all seriousness, that you put the foundation in backwards.

 

[Fusion_power]

There is a lot of bashing going on, but seems to me that nobody so far has posted actual experience with small cell combs. I've had small cell in roughly half of my colonies for the last 10 years from my first attempts with wax 4.9 in 2005. I also kept several colonies on regular large cell which actually works out at 5.4 mm for most of the manufacturers foundation I've used. Boiled down, there is no effect I could find in terms of varroa resistance that was attributable to small cell foundation. Large cell hives survive just fine. Small cell hives survive just fine. I let quite a few hives build their own combs and measured the cells. They average about 5.1 mm with a range from 4.9 up to 5.6 mm.

Are the bees happy on 4.9? On average, no, they aren't. I found that about 10% of my colonies had smaller queens with smaller bees. These bees are perfectly content on 4.9 foundation. If you work at it for 4 or 5 years, most of your bees will be smaller and will be content on small cell combs. So if you want to use small cell, by all means give it a trial. Look for the colonies that like it and breed from them.

Is there a beneficial effect from small cell combs? Actually, there is, but it has nothing to do with varroa. I found that small cell has a marked influence on spring buildup. First, some background. I've built my own bee equipment since 1977. My first frames were built with 1.25 inch (31.5 mm) end bars. This allows me to put 11 frames into a standard Langstroth deep brood box. I ran this size frame for 40 years and can tell most of the advantages and disadvantages. The huge benefit of narrow frames is that bees build up about 2 weeks earlier in spring. My bees peak in about 9 to 10 weeks as compared to bees on 1 3/8 inch (35 mm) frames that peak in 10 to 12 weeks. This can be a significant benefit if you want to split your bees prior to the spring flow. It is a problem because colonies reach swarm strength just after fruit bloom which means they will swarm heavily if action is not taken to prevent it. Small cell foundation just happens to enhance this effect. The number of cells in a brood nest (meaning the area the cluster covers) is significantly higher when narrow frames are combined with small cells. How much difference? Adding 1 extra frame to the brood nest (from 10 frames to 11) gives about 10% more cells the cluster can cover. Changing from 5.3 foundation to 4.9 increases from about 7100 cells per frame to 8300 cells. This is a 16% increase. combine the 10% increase from narrow frames with the 16% increase with small cells and the net effect is that a given size cluster can cover 28% more cells of brood. The bottom line is that bees on small cell and narrow frames can reach swarm strength in 7 to 8 weeks from the start of spring.

Is earlier spring buildup a benefit? It can be but depends on the nectar flows in the area. I have first pollen about Feb 1st to 10th in a normal year. My main flow usually starts April 20th to 25th and lasts about 6 weeks. This gives about 12 weeks for my bees to build up. If I use narrow frames and small cell, they peak about the 1st of April, roughly 3 or 4 weeks before the main flow starts. My solution is simple. I pull a nuc from all the strong colonies in early April. The result is a weak spring nuc that builds up on the flow and a relatively strong parent colony that makes a crop of honey.

As for the rest of this discussion, I've lost one colony so far this winter and that was due to running out of stores. The rest of my bees are building up for the spring flow. I have not treated for mites since 2005. You tell me why they are alive and thriving. Don't bother saying it is because of small cell.

I spent the last year building equipment and converting to square Dadant depth hives based on Brother Adam's recommendations. I built my own frames with 31.5 mm end bars but was unable to source small cell wired foundation for the first round of frames. I bought 256 sheets of 5.4 mm foundation from Dadant last year and used most of it getting combs drawn. I was able to get Dadant to make 200 pounds of 5.1 foundation which they will ship to me as soon as the weather moderates. Why 5.1? Because the bees seem to like 5.1 a lot better than 4.9 and all of my bees will readily draw 5.1 cells very well.

 

[Finman]

.
I use very normal American standard Langstroth frames and very normal boxes. And I got double better honey yields here. And I have varroas in hives more than I need.

You have there now +20C and I have here -20C. Willows start to bloom first of May. After a month bees are able to make cleansing flight, and I see which are alive. They have not been outside for 4.5 months.

 

[SDM]

To me there was a real case for serious animal cruelty charges for the number of colonies (thousands) just allowed to die to follow a doctrine.

Sadly, animal cruelty laws don't extend to invertebrates.

 

[Fusion_power]

We are in different climates and have to adapt to keeping bees for location finman. I have a spring flow, a summer dearth, and hopefully a fall flow. You get one long near continuous flow from late May to fall.

As for what I am doing with all those numbers, here they are so you can decide if I am correct.

Here is 4.9 foundation cell counts
11 1/4: 10513
9 1/8: 8307
7 1/4: 6360
6 1/4: 5322
5 3/8: 4413

Here is 5.1 foundation cell counts
11 1/4: 9705
9 1/8: 7668
7 1/4: 5871
6 1/4: 4912
5 3/8: 4074

Here is 5.3 foundation cell counts for a single sheet of foundation drawn out in a frame
11 1/4: 8986 (Dadant standard)
9 1/8: 7100 (Langstroth standard)
7 1/4: 5436 (Western super, not often used, but Lang length X width and 7 5/8 depth)
6 1/4: 4549 (Medium super commonly used in the U.S. with Lang length X width)
5 3/8: 3772 (shallow super which is used most commonly here in the southeast U.S.)

With 10 frames in a Langstroth brood chamber, there are 71,000 total cells. Narrow frames give 78,100 cells in the box. Change to 4.9 foundation and the number of cells in 11 frames goes up to 91,300. Do the math 1 - 91300/71000 = .286 or 28.6 percent increase in cells by combining 11 frames with 4.9 foundation.

Square Dadant works out similar but since I am using 5.1 foundation, most of the benefit comes from having an extra pair of frames. Twelve Dadant frames with 9000 cells each give 108,000 cells per box. Using narrow frames plus 5.1 foundation increases it to 135,800 cells per box. The same math 1 - 135,800/108,000 = .257 or 25.7 percent increase in cells by combining 14 frames with 5.1 foundation.

How does this work in the spring buildup? The first cycle of brood is laid based on size of the cluster. That cycle hatches out and can cover 25% more area for the second cycle. The second cycle hatches and can cover 25% more area resulting in a multiplier effect. By the time the third cycle of brood hatches, the queen is laying at her capacity and the colony is at peak population.

 

[Finman]

.
I do not use excluder and the queen can lay as much as colony wants.

. Counting cells does not help. They are what they are.

In my hives spring build up depends, how big cluster is alive after winter. The bigger the better.
Terrarium heaters help a lot in build up and protein patty feeding. With them build up may bee 3 times bigger compared to normal.

.terrarium heaters help up to 17C day temp. Then bees add ventilation of their hives.

Patty feeding helps as long as nature has only willow pollen. When other plants start to bloom, bees stop patty eating. Willow pollen has only 15% protein.
.
Almost all beekeepers hate electrict heating and protein feeding. But all beekeepers love sugar feeding.
.

 

[Finman]

.
Yes, you can add foraging power on pasture site, but then it becomes a line, clock is 14 and bees have cleaned all flowers. There are 4 working hours left, or even 8 hours, but work has stopped.

So you have half too much hives, or even 3 times too much.

That is the point in pasture evaluation. It is much more important than calculate cells. You have nursed the whole year your hives, and now you do not have time to move hives to the good pastures?

And hive size? Is it 4 boxes or 8 boxes? In 8 box hive foraging power is 3 fold compared to 4 box.

What I have seen, Australia is only beekeeping country which has researched , how to maximize pastures from viewpoint of honey yield

Kg honey per hectare have been all rubbish. No one gets 500 kg honey/hectare. Numbers have been copied from country to country and no one knows where they come from.
.

 

[SDM]

Fusion Power, So can you tell me which of your Colonies is the same race as it was 40 yrs ago to be claiming faster spring buildup ?
Odd that you didn't find your africanised bees prefered it, I thought they were well suited to the smaller cell size.
All that data over 40 yrs comparing queen sized etc and THIS is your conclusion, under performing stock and an attempt to justify the unjustifiable ?

 

[Finman]

.
Fusion bees are basicly Russian bees, but open mated hybrids. According researching hybrids do not resist mites.
And all sings hint, that Fusion's bees are genuine scutellatas.
.

 

[Fusion_power]

Give it a trial and see if it works. It is really simple to prove I am wrong. Set up 10 colonies with small cell and narrow frames and compare them to 10 colonies on regular combs. Let me know what you find.

Finman, my bees lean heavily toward A.M.M. and Ligustica traits. They have approximately 25% heritage from the Russian line that Purvis used in developing his Goldline queens.

I culled all of the BWeaver queens except one that is mated to drones from my line. Her colony is as workable as any of my other hives and has a few interesting traits such as hive beetle resistance. I'll watch her through this year and either decide to raise from her or to cull her.

I can't help but wonder at the antipathy expressed toward bees derived from Scutellata. They are just honeybees. With time and selection, they can be bred for commercial use. Have any of you made a trip to Africa to work with them in their native environment? I got to see Africdanized bees in Mexico just over a year ago and was surprised how different they were from what I expected.

 

[SDM]

.
Fusion bees are basicly Russian bees, but open mated hybrids. According researching hybrids do not resist mites.
And all sings hint, that Fusion's bees are genuine scutellatas.
.

I can't tell if you are agreeing or not.

 

[SDM]

How does this work in the spring buildup? The first cycle of brood is laid based on size of the cluster. That cycle hatches out and can cover 25% more area for the second cycle. The second cycle hatches and can cover 25% more area resulting in a multiplier effect. By the time the third cycle of brood hatches, the queen is laying at her capacity and the colony is at peak population.

How does your setup differ in that from any colony ?
If you ignore the thermal disadvantage of the larger box. You would have done better by going narrower and higher, requiring less bees to warm the lower brood and a larger percentage of the nest enjoying the heat rising from that, meaning more bees available for forage.
You have also stated previously how you restocked your isolated mating environments feral stock with swarms released from your BWeaver bees to ensure their presence in future. Yet now you say they are not present.

 

[Finman]

I can't tell if you are agreeing or not.

Me either. Fusion bees are in their own series. If he could rise his honey yields. But all is done now.

 

[user 6228]

The problem is that it's a faith based approach to beekeeping. The Arizona High Priestess and her disciples will make great claims to sign up new converts, but never have numbers to back up their claims. Folks are free to believe what they want, and she's not selling anything. To bad so many have to go through loss after loss before giving up. Several of her group have stayed here. Nice enough people, but their dogma is dangerous. I've presented at three of their conventions, but no more. There is so much rubbish being presented that I either be rude and speak up...which I would never do, or walk out. Which I did. I mean really. When someone tells you, with all seriousness, that you put the foundation in backwards.

If say something often with enough conviction you will get people to follow anything that has a shred of plausibility. The group will then reaffirm their beliefs together and it will take time and and overwhelming evidence to remove the support.