The Russian 'Alpine Hive'

[Little John]

Ok - as promised, here's a thread devoted to this hive.

To save folks having to swop back and forth - here's what's already been posted:

If you want to see just how easy it is to run a 'one-box system' - in this case a half-height Warre system: 300 x 300 x 108 (all internal measurements) - checkout:
http://www.pchelhom.ru/index/0-4

It's the middle video of the 3 posted there which shows the honey extraction process - it's like watching poetry in motion ...

The really neat bit about this system is the use of the Roger Delon wire frames, which allows each framed comb to contiguously connect with the frames above and below it, thus eliminating the 'death space'.

Very clever these Russians (and French) ...

LJ

Little john

I have to agree that is a very slick way of extracting I wish I could do mine as quick.
__________________
Craig.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ely View Post
Interesting video. I'd never seen that type of frame before. Is that a comercial outfit doing solely crush and strain. Is there much wastage with those frames? Looks like it could get messy. Terrible music hehe


Well, it's a commercial outfit - albeit run 'on a shoestring' - Russian-style. If you look at the other videos, you'll see they have hundreds of these hives, and take them to the crops several dozen at a time on large trailers.

No crush & strain for these guys - towards the end of the video I mentioned, the guy is using a rotary extractor to spin-out the honey four boxes (32 frames) at a time, and recovers the combs (on their wire frames) intact, for re-use.

I think it's in video no.1 that stacks of new frames - must be a good thousand or so - can be seen. So presumably they must install new foundation and thus rotate the combs every so often.

There's quite a lot of bumf on the Russian 'alpine hive' if you search around: the Russians apparently became very excited when they first saw the Delon frame: a) because they saw a low-cost option to developing a western beekeeping system, and b) because they also saw that the wire frame enabled the integrity of the comb - along it's full height, from top to bottom - to be maintained.

The progression seems to have been:

Warre - established the optimum dimensions (300mm x 300mm) for the boxes, opted for Top Bars, and used a 'permeable quilt' for top insulation.

Delon - copied the Warre boxes, but opted for an insulated non-permeable top, and introduced the wire frame and a self-draining floor.

Russian Alpine Hive - copied the Warre boxes, copied the Delon frames, but used both ideas to emulate conventional western-style beekeeping (placing honey supers on top, rather than 'nadiring' boxes from below/ rotary extraction, rather than crush-and-strain/ using queen excluders etc - whilst maintaining a bee-friendly brood box configuration, with contiguous comb thoughout the hive etc.

As I see it, the Russians have brought together lots of ideas from outside their country, and have put together a very neat system. Word is that they do not treat for diseases - no need.

LJ

Originally Posted by Ely View Post
Interesting stuff. Howcome no need to treat desease?


Ummm - I guess because they haven't experienced any diseases ? This system was first revealed (afaik) in 2005 in Beekeeper's Quarterly, and they are still not treating 8 years later.

Perhaps it has something to do with there being no beespaces around the combs - thus no draughts, with no loss of the antiseptic atmosphere within the hive that Johann Thur talks about. (except when they're using the brood boxes to rear new queens - other than on those rare occasions, the brood chamber is sacrosanct: "Not To Be Disturbed")

Isn't it interesting that we've come to view disease as being 'normal' - and healthy, disease-free bee colonies as being somewhat 'abnormal' ...

LJ

Good point. I really like the look of these hives. Ever thought of keeping a few yourself?

Indeed - I'm making-up a couple of hives right now, as an experiment.

LJ

 

[Little John]

Little John - with regards to the Russian Alpine hives, what is their position regarding swarm control?

That's something I still haven't figured out yet. There are a few references to the preventing of swarming, but no obvious details about how exactly this is done - I'm presuming it's based on external observation, followed by ??.

In the first film of the 3 at: http://www.pchelhom.ru/index/0-4 there's one section where they're observing bearding at night by torchlight - that may be an anticipation of swarming - but my knowledge of Russian is limited to 3 words, so if there are any Russian speakers out there ...

Russians have a varroa resistant strain.

Could well be - although I've heard an idea voiced on one of the Russian chat forums that it may something else.
Most people believe that varroa select drone cells because of their larger size. The idea being voiced was that varroa select the drone cells because of their location - towards the periphery of the comb, where it is slightly cooler.

So - if the hive 'chimney' is reduced in size, this eliminates the cooler areas. Hence the smaller Warre dimensions may be effective in reducing varroa multiplication. Well - it's a theory ...

LJ

 

[itma]

Although the boxes look like Warré footprint, they look as though they are operated more like conventional hives.
It looked like there were qx's and clearing boards in use.

Not sure how the joined-up combs inhibit adding extra boxes.
Or inspections.
The idea of inspecting LOTS of individual little brood frames doesn't look as though it fits with the production ethos, minimising and simplifying handling of boxfuls of identical frames - as box-sized batches.

How is the frame spacing set?


I keep thinking how similar Warré interior space is to a chimney ... and how popular they are with the bees.
But I'm sure derekm will be comparing it to a tree-trunk!

 

[Hivemaker.]

How is the frame spacing set?

I keep thinking how similar Warré interior space is to a chimney ...

Castellated.

Perhaps a new hive design, the drain pipe hive, with easy hydraulic plunger extraction system.

 

[itma]

...
Most people believe that varroa select drone cells because of their larger size. The idea being voiced was that varroa select the drone cells because of their location - towards the periphery of the comb, where it is slightly cooler.

So - if the hive 'chimney' is reduced in size, this eliminates the cooler areas. Hence the smaller Warre dimensions may be effective in reducing varroa multiplication. Well - it's a theory ...

Seems like to me.
How does the varroa measure the size of the cell?
Varroa might have a temperature preference, but if you want the outer cells to be warmer, insulate the walls!
The narrower the chimney, the greater the proportion of the cells that are going to be on the outside, and surely 'cooler', not 'warmer'?

 

[Little John]

Although the boxes look like Warré footprint, they look as though they are operated more like conventional hives.
It looked like there were qx's and clearing boards in use.

That's right - they've taken the Warre/ Delon concept and modified it towards their idea of commercial beekeeping.

Not sure how the joined-up combs inhibit adding extra boxes. Or inspections.

The idea of inspecting LOTS of individual little brood frames doesn't look as though it fits with the production ethos, minimising and simplifying handling of boxfuls of identical frames - as box-sized batches.

The joined-up combs don't inhibit anything - that's the whole idea - a more bee-friendly commercial operation.
In the blurb which accompanies the films, they say they are trying to change beekeeping stereotypes - to operate commercially, whilst incorporating as many Warre/Delon ideas as possible. Happy healthy bees = good honey yields.

The brood frames are NOT routinely inspected - only when they are used for queen-rearing.

How is the frame spacing set?

With metal castellated strips.

I keep thinking how similar Warré interior space is to a chimney ... and how popular they are with the bees.
But I'm sure derekm will be comparing it to a tree-trunk!

The Russians make their boxes from 30mm thick timber - I'm using 35mm: not because that thickness is necessarily warranted, but because that's the thickness that scaffold planks are made in.

No doubt derekm will approve !

LJ

BTW - another site which may be of interest to anyone contemplating something similar to this is: http://pcela.rs/alpine_hive_1.htm

There's a Serbian bloke there called Slobodan Jankovic who's doing the same kind of thing as the Russians, but in smaller numbers, and with 'full-height' boxes. He's also got a photo gallery showing some stunning vistas.

 

[Little John]

The narrower the chimney, the greater the proportion of the cells that are going to be on the outside, and surely 'cooler', not 'warmer'?

The narrower the chimney, the more it is reduced to around the size of the bien - hence all cells are contained within the cluster - there then becomes no 'outside', no cooler nooks or crannies. At least that's the theory.

The 300mm 'diameter' has been established by numerous French experts over the centuries as being THE optimum size, for this very reason. Which of course results in a very tall column when a productive colony is inside !

LJ

 

[beebopalula]

Like the uncapping machine.

 

[Little John]

Bit of an update - re: swarming ...

They write (by courtesy of Google's 'translate'):

This [first] season, families with young queens do not swarm alone go for honey collection, each fall to give trade honey (depending on the food supply of 30 kg or more), growing brood in the required amount for the winter.

If the family came to the swarming state, divide it by cuttings (for 1 -2 case), not looking for queens and queen cells without breaking. In the future, they disappear without consequences. Or alternately dymim top 2-3 body with honey and brood (mostly sealed) and then shakes them out of all the bees in the lower body, keeping your frame across the top bar. [so that the combs don't jump out in the process - LJ] Cover the body and put the bars separating it from the bees other vacant housing. Soon they will rise is not employed bee swarms. In the evening, portable frame with them in other families without removing queen cells - they eliminate the bees themselves. Family then leaves swarming state.

Make of that what you will ....


Also - re: spacing - the Warre people often space their combs by drilling a small hole in each end of the top bar, then 'secure' the top bar to the rebate cut in the box side using headless nails, so that the bar can still be lifted free.

Strange that the Russians haven't adopted that technique - gotta be simpler/cheaper.

LJ

PS - forgot to mention - they've been running these hives (treatment-free) for 18 years, and not 8 as I previously suggested.

 

[REDWOOD]

Looks like there was lots of gray paint available after the cold war, or is the colour for some other reason

 

[Little John]

Looks like there was lots of gray paint available after the cold war, or is the colour for some other reason

Aluminium paint - best wood primer around, plus it reflects heat.

Thinks ... "I remember heat - it happened one August day, three summers ago ..."

 

[REDWOOD]

Derekm is the right guy to ask about heat and reflective paints

 

[Finman]

.

I do not know what are you dreaming about Russian bekeeping.
It was on high level during Soviet Union time but then the economy of state collapsed. Music professors played violin on streets to get their living. Beekeeping collapsed among many other things.

Nowadays Russians visit in Finland and bye lots of beekeeping stuffs from Honey Paradise. Its location is half way on the route of Russian border and Helsinki.

The earning level of Russians is 1/5 that of Finland and still they bye products from Finland. However cost level of beekeeping stuffs are 1/2 that of UK.

Russians have no miracles in their beekeeping. We have guys who co-operate with them, but as far as I know, there is nothing to learn from them.

Nowadays beekeeping skills spreaded very fast with internet. But they spreaded too before internet. There were guys who made co-operation and moved skills from country to country. - Then, most of beekeepers do not learn what ever you say to them.

 

[Finman]

.
Russian is spoken so widely that it is difficult to know from what country videos come from.

There are modern material but there exist old material from Soviet era.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpuhL-YBx9w[/ame]

 

[Ely]

What size brood boxes do you keep Finman?

 

[Little John]

There's no dreaming going on Finman/Finski etc - only inside your head.

The wood is already cut and planed to size. I've been making a router table this afternoon, in order to cut rebates in these shallow boxes. I'll be making a couple of these hives initially, to test in the coming season, and will take it from there.

I can obviously see potential where you can't.

LJ

 

[Polyanwood]

I look forward to seeing the pictures Little John.

As far as I am concerned, the hopes and claims of those that say that their 'special techniques' (special hive, special comb size, special bees, special leave alone beekeeping, special crystals, special ley lines) have not been supported by science to kill varroa.

I strongly believe that if you do not control and kill varroa your bees will die after a few years.

I am interested in what you and they are doing though, and wish you well.

 

[Ely]

Hi little John. Just wondering how you are getting on with your project?

 

[Finman]

There's no dreaming going on Finman/Finski etc - only inside your head.

The wood is already cut and planed to size.
LJ

Russia has different Langstroth dimension than USA or Europe.

 

[Goran]

Sorry, now saw it was already posted..