The right brood box setup?

[Paulypaul]

I appreciate this subject is one of the more historically popular in this forum. Selfishly, I'd like to grab the opportunity to ask the more experienced beekeepers here, and have my own particular questions answered.

After 14 months of beekeeping, I've experimented with no QE and double brood box setups. I also inherited colonies which I overwintered on brood-and-a-half.

My requirements:

• Minimised inspection times.
• Effective swarm management.
• Successful overwintering.
• Maximised honey production.
• Minimum no. boxes to carry home.
• Minimised mite treatment costs.

My situation:

• National Abelo poly equipment.
• All colonies get 1 inspection per week.
• An out apiray, 15 mins walking distance.
• I don't have a vehicle.
• 15 colonies.

No QE
For me, this option created a big mess. Brood all over the place, which meant overly long inspections.
It also had the effect of minimising my honey production, as the Honey was mixed in with brood and dotted around the entire hive.
This method also meant the colony sometimes moved the brood nest up the hive, so the bottom deep became almost empty.
I tried this method as I suspected it would minimise swarming. But, I discovered that if a colony wants to swarm, it's because it's strong and healthy, not so much because it's stressed by less space. It was the colonies that overwintered on Double deeps that wanted to swarm, in the spring, and, the signs were glaringly obvious.
I appreciate there are skilled beekeepers who run this system with success, it's just not for me.

Double deep
This would be my 2nd choice. Having the same size frames (as appose to brood and a half) makes a huge difference, particularly when it comes to splits or boosting a colony using a resource hive.
The only draw backs are the extra time to do a full inspection when compared to smaller brood configurations, and the amount of work the bees must do to fill a double brood box, with what could otherwise be harvestable honey.

Brood and a half
This was the configuration recommended to me when I started.
All the colonies I overwintered on this format survived very well, but left me with spring splits in shallow frames. Which is a messy pain to deal with, and means i still have colonies with a mix of deep and shallow frames in a deep. This format also entails more inspection time than a smaller format.

14 x 12
I'm not going to consider this as it would entail me buying a load of new kit, and the frame format wouldn't be compatible with my existing deep and shallow kit.

Single (deep)
With my wealth of 14 months experience, this is the format I'm moving towards.
It professes to give the shortest inspection times, cheapest and most effective mite treatment opportunity and minimises inspection times.

I have some nervousness, which I hope more experienced beekeepers can help me with:

Overwintering: I'm worried about the smaller space of a single deep being enough for both food and brood. What method/approach can I use to set the colonies up for winter in the best way?

Dearth: Between spring, summer and autumn flows, it must be tempting to take all stores above the QE. What approach do you take in deciding how much and when to leave.

Swarm impulse: I'm suspicious it was the big brood space configurations I used over winter, that grew my big colonies in autumn so they were too large, which then increased their propensity to swarm in the spring. What do think about this?

Brood space: those of you with poly equipment - does poly provide more opportunity for brood space in a single box, as brood can go to the wall?

Thank you.

 

[drex]

I run double broods with QE. Rarely do I get attempts to swarm, rarely do I inspect bottom BB. If in a rush I just do a tip inspection of top box and might just pull one frame from its centre. How do you get boxes home for extraction without a vehicle?
At the end of the day, the right set up is that which works for you, your bees and location. I tried them all in my early days. Would never consider brood and a half- too inflexible

 

[Paulypaul]

How do you get boxes home for extraction without a vehicle?

The Honey wagon, and begging the occasional favour from friends and family.

 

[The Poot]

I run double brood (deep roof Abelo poly) to over Winter and, like you entered Spring with very big colonies. I swapped the broods this Spring, top to bottom as it is reputed to help avoid swarming. Nevertheless, all bar one made swarm preps this year and needed splitting.
I found the bees slow to move back up to fill the top box.

I don’t normally check bottom boxes for queen cells, but found I needed to this year because I’d swapped the boxes. I won’t do that again.
Brood and a half is very restrictive- I tried that in times past and it’s a no no for me.
Overwintering on a brood and nadired super worked well when I used to do it. I found the supers that ended up with brood were a pain to store later, as far as wax moth were concerned.

I generally take honey up to the middle of August and then allow the Autumn nectar to be stored for Winter, I feed well through September and vape until as clear a varroa drop as I can get. Any unsealed (over 19%) supers are spun out and fed back to the bees.

In that swarming is the means of reproducing, I think it occurs more readily in healthy, robust colonies and the drive for low swarming bees is counterproductive.

I once tried 14 x 12 and when in conversation with Peter Little, he described it as an abortion, I moved to double brood!

I hope that helps……not that I’m saying what I do is right. It’s just what I do after lots of faffing about.

 

[JamezF]

I've run double brood for a fair while and came to the conclusion that it's a bit larger than the ideal for my situation, so this year I have experimented by making some "fat dummies" to replace the two outer frames in each box so I now have "nine over nine". In terms of brood area it works out broadly similar to brood-and-a-half, but without the mess of mismatched frame sizes. Thus far it seems to be going ok, but I want to get the bees through a Winter before drawing any firmer conclusions. As far as I'm aware there are other members of this forum who run the same configuration.

James

 

[Garry R]

I've run double brood for a fair while and came to the conclusion that it's a bit larger than the ideal for my situation, so this year I have experimented by making some "fat dummies" to replace the two outer frames in each box so I now have "nine over nine". In terms of brood area it works out broadly similar to brood-and-a-half, but without the mess of mismatched frame sizes. Thus far it seems to be going ok, but I want to get the bees through a Winter before drawing any firmer conclusions. As far as I'm aware there are other members of this forum who run the same configuration.

James

If you slip a nicely fitted polystyrene sheet into the fat dummy it should work a treat. Just use some aluminium tape on the top to stop nibblers or even a frame with poly sheet on each side with a tinfoil wrap - I have done this to insulate the brood nest internally.

 

[The Poot]

I've run double brood for a fair while and came to the conclusion that it's a bit larger than the ideal for my situation, so this year I have experimented by making some "fat dummies" to replace the two outer frames in each box so I now have "nine over nine". In terms of brood area it works out broadly similar to brood-and-a-half, but without the mess of mismatched frame sizes. Thus far it seems to be going ok, but I want to get the bees through a Winter before drawing any firmer conclusions. As far as I'm aware there are other members of this forum who run the same configuration.

James

That’s something I’ve not tried, but seems a good idea. Like you, I think double brood gives more space than is needed for most colonies, but is required for the odd prolific one. I’ll be interested in opinion after Winter. I think @Swarm runs this configuration?

 

[Swarm]

Yes, I find it offers the ideal nest size for my bees.

 

[Antipodes]

I appreciate this subject is one of the more historically popular in this forum. Selfishly, I'd like to grab the opportunity to ask the more experienced beekeepers here, and have my own particular questions answered.

After 14 months of beekeeping, I've experimented with no QE and double brood box setups. I also inherited colonies which I overwintered on brood-and-a-half.

My requirements:

• Minimised inspection times.
• Effective swarm management.
• Successful overwintering.
• Maximised honey production.
• Minimum no. boxes to carry home.
• Minimised mite treatment costs.

My situation:

• National Abelo poly equipment.
• All colonies get 1 inspection per week.
• An out apiray, 15 mins walking distance.
• I don't have a vehicle.
• 15 colonies.

No QE
For me, this option created a big mess. Brood all over the place, which meant overly long inspections.
It also had the effect of minimising my honey production, as the Honey was mixed in with brood and dotted around the entire hive.
This method also meant the colony sometimes moved the brood nest up the hive, so the bottom deep became almost empty.
I tried this method as I suspected it would minimise swarming. But, I discovered that if a colony wants to swarm, it's because it's strong and healthy, not so much because it's stressed by less space. It was the colonies that overwintered on Double deeps that wanted to swarm, in the spring, and, the signs were glaringly obvious.
I appreciate there are skilled beekeepers who run this system with success, it's just not for me.

Double deep
This would be my 2nd choice. Having the same size frames (as appose to brood and a half) makes a huge difference, particularly when it comes to splits or boosting a colony using a resource hive.
The only draw backs are the extra time to do a full inspection when compared to smaller brood configurations, and the amount of work the bees must do to fill a double brood box, with what could otherwise be harvestable honey.

Brood and a half
This was the configuration recommended to me when I started.
All the colonies I overwintered on this format survived very well, but left me with spring splits in shallow frames. Which is a messy pain to deal with, and means i still have colonies with a mix of deep and shallow frames in a deep. This format also entails more inspection time than a smaller format.

14 x 12
I'm not going to consider this as it would entail me buying a load of new kit, and the frame format wouldn't be compatible with my existing deep and shallow kit.

Single (deep)
With my wealth of 14 months experience, this is the format I'm moving towards.
It professes to give the shortest inspection times, cheapest and most effective mite treatment opportunity and minimises inspection times.

I have some nervousness, which I hope more experienced beekeepers can help me with:

Overwintering: I'm worried about the smaller space of a single deep being enough for both food and brood. What method/approach can I use to set the colonies up for winter in the best way?

Dearth: Between spring, summer and autumn flows, it must be tempting to take all stores above the QE. What approach do you take in deciding how much and when to leave.

Swarm impulse: I'm suspicious it was the big brood space configurations I used over winter, that grew my big colonies in autumn so they were too large, which then increased their propensity to swarm in the spring. What do think about this?

Brood space: those of you with poly equipment - does poly provide more opportunity for brood space in a single box, as brood can go to the wall?

Thank you.

I believe you are heading the right direction. I've moved in that direction myself and am having more success/enjoyment.
Great effort with the Honey Wagon. It's fabulous.

 

[JamezF]

If you slip a nicely fitted polystyrene sheet into the fat dummy it should work a treat. Just use some aluminium tape on the top to stop nibblers or even a frame with poly sheet on each side with a tinfoil wrap - I have done this to insulate the brood nest internally.

As I presently have access to a lot of scrap 5.5mm ply, I've made the dummies as a "box" filled with offcuts of PIR. Much the same, I guess.

James

 

[Garry R]

As you know I run poly hives and I use them as five or six frame nucs with dummies and then expand by moving them along when adding a new frame up to they are full size. Easier than transferring the whole lot into a broodbox and then expanding

 

[alancooper]

My hives have a double brood arrangement. I rarely inspect the bottom box. In the two years I have used the arrangement any Q cells have always been in the top box. In August-ish the bottom box begins to be used less and I insert 2.5 cm and 5cm insulation board dummies to reduce empty frames. If the bottom box empties before the mid-Sept Ivy forage begins to arrive, I remove it. Seems to work well coping with the variable seasonal weather we have in West Fermanagh.