The match and crownboard thing

[alfazer]

I keep reading jokes and abrasive comments about this issue, but it's like the forum's secret handshake. I don't really get it.

Personally, I don't make any ventilation space under my crownboards at all, even with matches. I've done it a few times in the past and didn't notice anything different. I know some people who do and others who don't but neither set seem overly bothered about it. They tend to have debates about queen rearing methods or how to treat varroa, but on matches and crownboards...nobody cares much.

Anyone offer a beginner a ride on the goat with an answer to why is this particular issue is such a big deal?

 

[Swarm]

Same as most things really, people with different opinions but can only accept their own. I have seen thriving colonies below 'open' crown boards, two holes where porter escapes would fit. Never seen or know anyone who uses matchsticks but the effect is similar. There is a bit of an obsession here with insulation, so the matchstick comments are just collective mocking of the other side.
I've not noticed any spectacular difference between colonies in poly or wood, insulated or not, a strong colony is strong in either. Rather than simply accepting mantras as fact, you could just test it for yourself.

 

[B+.]

Anyone offer a beginner a ride on the goat with an answer to why is this particular issue is such a big deal?

It does seem to be a bit of an in-joke on this forum. I think it comes from BBKA advice to raise the crownboard a little over winter by placing a matchstick (or something similar) under the crownboard.
This has attracted a lot of scorn on here because, quite obviously, heat rises and the winter cluster has to work hard to replace that heat.
I use polyhives with a sheet of clear plastic from a builders merchant ontop so I wouldn't dream of adding top ventilation. Its a non-issue as far as I am concerned too.
In some humid climates, there could be an argument for it, but, not in the UK and certainly not over winter

 

[REDWOOD]

Matchsticks under the crown board was an acceptable practice years ago to give bees ventilation and to stop dampness in the hive as you know water dripping over the bees is a recipe for disaster, the unfortunate thing about this is that although it keeps the bees dry there is a massive loss of heat in the hive which can lead to starvation in the winter as bees use more stores to keep the hive warm, and in the warmer months bees tend to spend more energy keeping the brood warm and you will find slow build up, this is particularly so as now most beekeepers in the UK are using OMFs.
We now use insulation above the crown board to eliminate the cold spot to eliminate condensation above the bees.
However there are some die hard beekeepers out there who insist on matchsticks

 

[bingevader]

Even the very best jokes become tiresome with constant repetition.
Do your basic training, read as much as you can, then plough your own furrow.
Bee-keepers will always find something to disagree about.
And/But, more importantly, (unless you're doing something fundamentally wrong) the bees will carry on despite you, not because of you.
Our apiary is in an Eco-School!
I've all but stopped posting on here, I daren't ask for advice!

 

[For want of a better word]

Do your basic training, read as much as you can, then plough your own furrow.

One of the great mistakes that has been cut and pasted from the popular book by Yates aimed at those BBKA members wishing to take the Basic exam.
Full of bad advice and errors but like the Curate's egg has some good bits!

Long may the Matchstick Humour continue!

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

Yates ......
Full of bad advice and errors but like the Curate's egg has some good bits!

The whole section on breeding is obsolete, vague and anecdotal

 

[REDWOOD]

Even the very best jokes become tiresome with constant repetition.
Do your basic training, read as much as you can, then plough your own furrow.
Bee-keepers will always find something to disagree about.
And/But, more importantly, (unless you're doing something fundamentally wrong) the bees will carry on despite you, not because of you.
Our apiary is in an Eco-School!
I've all but stopped posting on here, I daren't ask for advice!

Well here are four beekeepers that agree

 

[Erichalfbee]

Matchsticks are really about offering outdated advice. I'm sure people who propped up their crown boards thought they were doing their best for their bees but time and knowledge of how bees work has superseded this view. It's still trotted out by publications that purport to be about informed beekeeping though so we continue to joke about it.

As for asking questions well, thank heavens some people still do because they get themselves in a real pickle sometimes.

If you know everything I suppose there is no real need to ask anything but instead of posting questions you could join in and supply answers

 

[MartinL]

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Do your basic training, read as much as you can, then plough your own furrow.
Bee-keepers will always find something to disagree about.

Do your basic training, read as much as you can, then plough your own furrow.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Long may the Matchstick Humour continue!

Yeghes da

+ Trickle vents are found in the all makes of modern double glazing, why?

Because it is a requirement of the building regulations. Stale/damp air carries fungal spores, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Fungal spores lead to disease!

However ventilation is already provided in the roof (if not blocked/sealed by the insulation police)!

 

[pargyle]

I tend to take as much of my guidance as possible from my bees - I've found that if there is as much as a hairline gap in the top of the hive - either round the feed hole cover or a slight gap between the crown board and the top of the brood box - they seal it up with propolis. If the bees wanted any ventilation at the top of the hive they would be making holes in it - not filling them up.

The ongoing joke may be a bit 'in' on this forum but it's quite serious that a number of beginners are advised by their 'mentors' to keep crown board holes open and to prop the crownboard open 'for ventilation and to make them cluster'. This advice may have had some vague relevance before open mesh floors but it has no place in modern beekeeping - basic laws of phyics tell you that heat rises and will escape through any holes in the top of the hive. If the bees need to replace this heat they are going to use more energy... it's no wonder that starvation is a problem when matchsticks prop the crown board open with a mesh floor underneah ... just ridiculous - not funny !

 

[user 6228]

The argument has been going on for over a hundred years... The pro-ventilate faction gained ascendancy in the 1940's justified by some pretty dubious research that opening holes in the top didnt make any difference

Anderson, E. J. (1948). Hive Humidity and Its Effect Upon Wintering of Bees. Journal of Economic Entomology, 41(4), 608–616. http://doi.org/http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/jee/41.4.608

 

[Millet]

Matchsticks are really about offering outdated advice. I'm sure people who propped up their crown boards thought they were doing their best for their bees but time and knowledge of how bees work has superseded this view. It's still trotted out by publications that purport to be about informed beekeeping though so we continue to joke about it.

As for asking questions well, thank heavens some people still do because they get themselves in a real pickle sometimes.

If you know everything I suppose there is no real need to ask anything but instead of posting questions you could join in and supply answers

There is several member on here like that, only there way and opinion counts.

 

[Millet]

+ Trickle vents are found in the all makes of modern double glazing, why?

Because it is a requirement of the building regulations. Stale/damp air carries fungal spores, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Fungal spores lead to disease!

However ventilation is already provided in the roof (if not blocked/sealed by the insulation police)!

How can you explain this,, i do not use match sticks and my crown board is stuck like glue with propolis, i have two bits of roofing slate over the porter escape holes, one of which must have moved while i was closing up pre winter, on my last inspection they was a plug of wax and propolis totally sealing the small hole created, and in doing so stopped any top ventilation full stop , the bees seem to be doing fine how can this be..?

 

[Erichalfbee]

How can you explain this,, i do not use match sticks and my crown board is stuck like glue with propolis, i have two bits of roofing slate over the porter escape holes, one of which must have moved while i was closing up pre winter, on my last inspection they was a plug of wax and propolis totally sealing the small hole created, and in doing so stopped any top ventilation full stop , the bees seem to be doing fine how can this be..?

The answer is that bees don't live in a human house

 

[user 6228]

The answer is that bees don't live in a human house

40 to 60% RH vs 75 to 90% RH

 

[Millet]

The answer is that bees don't live in a human house

, i know but i also don't know..

 

[Millet]

40 to 60% RH vs 75 to 90% RH

Can you narrow that down a little more Derek. there's too much information for me ..

 

[Little John]

Matchsticks under the Crown Board was a very good idea when first proposed by Cowan - as he over-wintered his hives indoors in a loft where the colonies were becoming too warm, and he wanted to increase the ventilation of those hives. Apparently it worked quite well.

But then beekeepers who kept their hives outdoors started to use the same technique, without taking into account the context within which Cowan had been operating.

On a personal note, I intend to test the 'ventilation vs insulation' argument this coming season, as well as determining whether bees prefer a top or bottom entrance. I have my own views/prejudices on these subjects, but am mindful of Tom Seeley's oft-given advice: "If in doubt, ask the bees."
LJ

 

[Little John]

... a plug of wax and propolis totally sealing the small hole created, and in doing so stopped any top ventilation full stop , the bees seem to be doing fine how can this be..?

One of the frequent problems that newcomers to beekeeping face is the amount of 'headlining' that goes on amongst beekeepers. You know how newspapers operate - trying to capture a whole complex issue in just 4 or 5 words. Bit like how politicians use sound-bites.

One of these is: "cold doesn't kill bees, but moisture/ wetness/ condensation does."
A more complete version of this 'sound-bite' would be that moisture dripping onto the colony can kill bees. [Hint - if you tilt your hives during winter, then moisture will run down the walls, and NOT onto the cluster]

Bees rather enjoy a high humidity - once the honey has been dessicated, of course - that's why they seal-up their cavity by propolising any gaps which exist. People who are obsessed with thermal insulation interpret this as keeping the heat in - whereas I'd bet money it's to keep the moisture in. Even in the dead of winter - if the temperatures are favourable - you'll find bees taking water-gathering flights. Bees NEED water.

But doesn't lack of ventilation cause a build-up of mold ? Sure - and that's something humans think must be avoided at all costs. Mold in our homes is a sure recipe for respiratory disease - but bees are well used to living amongst extreme forms of mold, fungi and rotting wood. That's their natural environment.

But we clever, over-brained monkeys, now think that bees should be living in clinically-clean and thermally efficient plastic boxes which mirror our own habitats, whereas throughout north-western Europe they've survived for a helluva long time - without any assistance whatsoever from humans - often in damp, wet and cold conditions.
LJ