TBH ? What, Why, How !

[Rhiellie]

I've heard about TBH's and was trying to find some info on the Warre hives etc, I've read that they are suppose to be a more natural way of keeping bees but after googling it I still don't really understand why. Also can you still harvest honey even though they don't have frames..... or do they have frames. And what are the advantages/disadvantages etc....Sorry I have really managed to confuse myself

 

[Cie]

There are a number of places to find out about Natural Beekeeping; have a Google for biobees or drop me a PM if you'd like more info.

Natural Beekeeping can arguably be done using any hive, it's just done from a different viewpoint; for the bees rather than for the honey. Traditional hives are all about an efficient way of getting the maximum honey from the bees, whereas Top Bar hives attempt to provide an environment that's best for the bees to thrive in.

Yes honey can be harvested from Kenyan TBHs and also Warré hives although some choose to harvest after the winter rather than before. They don't typically have frames.

 

[Poly Hive]

All rather debatable all in all.

PH

 

[ratcatcher]

have to say, I've got both nationals and top bar hives, and much prefer inspecting my top bars,

warre are good for limited space areas, but the boxes once filled can become heavy, and as they are added to the bottom of the hive, you start to need lifting apparatus to add empty boxes, you then need to store that lift frame somewhere
top bar hives are self contained, if you build yourself like mine, you can either just have top bars, or add frame sides/wax starter strips etc

my top bar on last inspection
http://youtu.be/li9obrnaRZE

 

[user 6228]

..whereas Top Bar hives attempt to provide an environment that's best for the bees to thrive in...

I would like to know by what objective, measurable criteria the attempt has been judged by it proponents.

 

[Brosville]

By the same token, can you produce the same to show that bees are positively smiling at regular intrusive inspections, brood culls, queen replacements, use of chemical riddled foundation, nicking of all their honey stores, corrosive chemical treatments(etc etc etc)? - I thought not!

(More) natural beekeeping is an attempt to give the bees as natural a life as possible, and places the welfare of the bees above all else (and has been accurately described as "apicentric beekeeping")

 

[BeeMoustashe]

I have long puzzled over the TBH as being so 'natural' for the bees.

From the way I see it, bees in nature tend to build their nests vertically, building down for brood and honey stores on top. The TBH makes them build sideways; surely this in itself is not working with the bees' instincts and therefore not 'natural'? The Warre hive seems ideal for this. A pain with lifting, but that's the price.

I don't see how the post critisising beekeeping practices such as drone culling chemicals and regular intrusions into the broodnest are in any way relevant to the discussion about hive types

 

[Chris Luck]

The type of box or container used to keep the bees in has nothing to do with being more natural or less intrusive - that is a management issue.

TBH and Warré can have frames and often do.

Warré can be added to from the top and use supers.

"Normal" hives, 'WBC, National, Langsroth, Dadant etc can be used as Top bar hives.

Personally, (and I have TBH, Warré and Dadant in various configurations) have found that my Dadants with OMF and foundation-less wired frames are overall the best on the basis that colonies tend to be stronger and more active. All are managed with the minimum of intervention and no treatments. Some are also left entirely to their own devices with no honey taken.

Chris

 

[user 6228]

By the same token, can you produce the same to show that bees are positively smiling at regular intrusive inspections, brood culls, queen replacements, use of chemical riddled foundation, nicking of all their honey stores, corrosive chemical treatments(etc etc etc)? - I thought not!

...

None of those are attributes of the hive design. You give a list of husbandry practices. Thats like saying if you own a gun therefore you kill things, so you must swap for a bow and arrow.
A square box with frames does not imply any of the list of practices you give.


Please list the objective measurable criteria by which a Top bar hive benefits a bee colony, rather than husbandry practices that are independent of it.

 

[Chris Luck]

From the way I see it, bees in nature tend to build their nests vertically, building down for brood and honey stores on top. The TBH makes them build sideways; surely this in itself is not working with the bees' instincts and therefore not 'natural'? The Warre hive seems ideal for this. A pain with lifting, but that's the price

Bees in nature build their colony structure according to the space they occupy. That can be long, narrow and deep or shallow and spread horizontally over a metre or two. All that seems to matter to feral bees is that the cavity is dry, secure and easy to defend and hopefully of a volume that they can adjust to.

Chris

 

[ratcatcher]

yet again I've noticed a thread asking for advice on warre/tbh, has gone from a simple question by a member, to an argument between national/honey producing keepers, and others, you guys have a whole forum to chat about keeping bees the way YOU WANT to keep bees, yet it always seems you jump at any chance to say its your way or none

WHY??
can you not believe that others may have opinions/ideas that differ from your own, those of us that use TBH, do not slate off nationals at every chance we get, we merely explain why we prefer said hives,

stop throwing your rattles from the pram

 

[Cie]

It seems to be the way of this forum ratcatcher. It's not particularly welcoming is it.

But I guess that if you suggested that people that want information about top bar hives go to http://************/forum/ there'd be outrage.

Edit: Heh, there you go, the forum software is set to filter the site url out. Speaks volumes.

 

[Poly Hive]

There is a section of the forum devoted to the TBH side of things.

I personally have no interest in them what so ever, apart from mating hives which are another matter, and yet the evangelical aspect keeps cropping up and its that aspect that bugs me frankly.

PH

 

[Poly Hive]

The site is set up to blank a lot of urls Cie dinna get paranoid.

I wouldn't have thought that finding biobees site was that difficult?

PH

 

[Brosville]

To try to answer the original poster's point - as has been pointed out, hive types do not necessarily go hand in hand with management techniques, but often they do.

Most modern conventional beekeeping is based on ideas and techniques developed in the 1850's, and over the past few years there have been a growing number of people who've been looking at "alternatives", much of it centred round top bar hives of various types (top bar hive means "no frames" - you just give them a bar to attach their comb, with no foundation, allowing them to build precisely what they want) - this tends to go with attempts to emulate techniques which allow them a less "controlled" life. For some reason which escapes me, some of the conventional beekeepers seem to be unable to stomach people "doing it differently", and can get all warp twitter and bisted over it.

In short, if you want to control every aspect of your bees' lives, and are all out for honey production as your primary goal, then you may well be happier going the conventional route, if you are of an experimental bent, and are perhaps more inclined towards a more "hands off, the bees know best" attitude, then you may be happier with what's become known as (more) natural beekeeping, whatever hive type you opt for.

The (Kenyan) Top Bar hive is ludicrously simple and cheap to build (free plans are available for download), and is an ideal starter hive - it is probably the kindest hive on the back as there's no heavy lifting, and people in wheelchairs can manage them - the design lends itself to your being able to take a comb or two of honey when they can spare it.

The Warre was designed as "the people's hive" - relatively cheap and simple, looks more like "conventional hives", but can involve more lifting, they are often run in a very "hands off" manner.

One good thing about it is that you can start off VERY cheaply - I got to 2 kenyan top bar hives, a Warre, 3 colonies, and all the gear I needed for under £150 all-in! (Ongoing costs are also very minimal, mostly boiled linseed oil for the exterior of the hives), I seldom feed, and there is no foundation to buy..........

 

[Rhiellie]

To try to answer the original poster's point - as has been pointed out, hive types do not necessarily go hand in hand with management techniques, but often they do.

Most modern conventional beekeeping is based on ideas and techniques developed in the 1850's, and over the past few years there have been a growing number of people who've been looking at "alternatives", much of it centred round top bar hives of various types (top bar hive means "no frames" - you just give them a bar to attach their comb, with no foundation, allowing them to build precisely what they want) - this tends to go with attempts to emulate techniques which allow them a less "controlled" life. For some reason which escapes me, some of the conventional beekeepers seem to be unable to stomach people "doing it differently", and can get all warp twitter and bisted over it.

In short, if you want to control every aspect of your bees' lives, and are all out for honey production as your primary goal, then you may well be happier going the conventional route, if you are of an experimental bent, and are perhaps more inclined towards a more "hands off, the bees know best" attitude, then you may be happier with what's become known as (more) natural beekeeping, whatever hive type you opt for.

The (Kenyan) Top Bar hive is ludicrously simple and cheap to build (free plans are available for download), and is an ideal starter hive - it is probably the kindest hive on the back as there's no heavy lifting, and people in wheelchairs can manage them - the design lends itself to your being able to take a comb or two of honey when they can spare it.

The Warre was designed as "the people's hive" - relatively cheap and simple, looks more like "conventional hives", but can involve more lifting, they are often run in a very "hands off" manner.

One good thing about it is that you can start off VERY cheaply - I got to 2 kenyan top bar hives, a Warre, 3 colonies, and all the gear I needed for under £150 all-in! (Ongoing costs are also very minimal, mostly boiled linseed oil for the exterior of the hives), I seldom feed, and there is no foundation to buy..........

Thank you very much, that has certainly helped my understanding of why someone may choose to have a TBH and how it would function in comparison to say a National hive (and such like hives).

 

[Nic Rhodes]

I've heard about TBH's and was trying to find some info on the Warre hives etc, I've read that they are suppose to be a more natural way of keeping bees but after googling it I still don't really understand why. Also can you still harvest honey even though they don't have frames..... or do they have frames. And what are the advantages/disadvantages etc....Sorry I have really managed to confuse myself

Natural beekeeping is based on three premises:

1. Interference in the natural lives of the bees is kept to a minimum.
2. Nothing is put into the hive that is known to be, or likely to be harmful either to the bees, to us or to the wider environment and nothing is taken out that the bees cannot afford to loose.
3. The Bees know what they are doing: our job is to listen to them and provide the optimum conditions for their well being.

this can be done is virtually any hive type but are more often practiced in Warre or TBH. If you want to investigate this further then Phil Chandlers Barefoot Beekeeper book is an easy read, however I would recommend you also read one of the more conventional beekeeping manuals as well to get a balanced view and be better informed on what type of beekeeping is for you.

 

[Chris Luck]

Natural beekeeping is based on three premises:

1. Interference in the natural lives of the bees is kept to a minimum.
2. Nothing is put into the hive that is known to be, or likely to be harmful either to the bees, to us or to the wider environment and nothing is taken out that the bees cannot afford to loose.
3. The Bees know what they are doing: our job is to listen to them and provide the optimum conditions for their well being.

this can be done is vertually any hive type but are more often practiced in Warre or TBH. If you want to investigate this further then Phil Chandlers Barefoot Beekeeper book is an easy read, however I would recommend you also read one of the more conventional beekeeping manuals as well to get a balanced view and be better informed on what type of beekeeping is for you.

I totally agree.

Chris

 

[lapdogsx5]

Hundreds of bees ouside hive

Just been down to my girls only to find one of my hives has hundreds of bees outside the hive should i be worried ?or is there anything i should be doing ?It`s just a brood box with no super.

lapdog

 

[lapdogsx5]

Just been down to my girls only to find one of my hives has hundreds of bees outside the hive should i be worried ?or is there anything i should be doing ?It`s just a brood box with no super.

lapdog

Sorry wrong place to put this i`m in panick mode