Taranov vs Snelgrove: Have I misunderstood? (Swarm control)

[BaconWizard]

Ok, I am a little confused.

Taranov's method seems to split the colony by leaving the queen and non-flying, young nurse bees together to make a new colony, while all the others make a new queen from the remaining brood.

Snelgrove seems to be doing the opposite: Removing the queen and all flying bees including older nurse bees, and having them start a new colony while the young nurses raise the remaining brood (and a new queen)

Either I have misunderstood, or both methods work to simulate swarming, perhaps due to a suddenly bare hive and reduced numbers.

Someone please put be straight here, and if both work, I would still like to know which bees primarily go with the queen when they swarm naturally.

Many thanks.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Someone please put be straight here, and if both work, I would still like to know which bees primarily go with the queen when they swarm naturally.

Up to 70% of the colony takes the queen with them when they swarm and most of them are young bees.
Think about it. What does a new colony need to do when it finds a new home?
Draw comb and make more bees
Which bees do that?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Either I have misunderstood, or both methods work to simulate swarming, perhaps due to a suddenly bare hive and reduced numbers.

I’m not sure that’s what splitting is about. Does it really simulate swarming? Isn’t it about splitting the colony so that neither split CAN swarm?

 

[BaconWizard]

That is what made the most sense to me. Have I got Snelgrove's method wrong then?

Edit: Also Pagden seems to be Queen with field-bees get a new home (but on the same site) while nurse-bees and brood are moved away.

What gives with the contradiction?

 

[magor]

I would still like to know which bees primarily go with the queen when they swarm naturally.

my belief is that , its the mid-age bees that swarm with Q , those bees are the most comprehensive workers that can nurse-draw combs and forage while in parent colony remains the brood with the nurses and foragers

you cant mimic the swarm exactly cause you cant select those mid-age bees and for that you try separate 1 from the other 2 ,of brood -Q - foragers

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

my belief is that , its the mid-age bees that swarm with Q

As Dani said - it's mainly the younger bees as their wax making and hypopharyngeal glands and at their prime, there has been a study done which proves this. contrary to a widely held belief, all bees are capable of flying a few days after emergence.

 

[JamezF]

As Dani said - it's mainly the younger bees as their wax making and hypopharyngeal glands and at their prime, there has been a study done which proves this. contrary to a widely held belief, all bees are capable of flying a few days after emergence.

I wasn't aware that it was "mainly" younger bees, but everything I can recall reading suggests that a large number of house bees will leave with swarms for precisely those reasons.

James

 

[magor]

As Dani said - it's mainly the younger bees as their wax making and hypopharyngeal glands and at their prime, there has been a study done which proves this. contrary to a widely held belief, all bees are capable of flying a few days after emergence.

bees ve plasticity and can push forward or pull back them life when required (but with cost on the colony), so jep ofc all bees can fly no doubt , my belief is not based on that they can not

but based on that bees ll act with less cost and in more economy way for them and so the right age bees to either draw comb or process into forager life with less cost or pull back into nurse life with less cost and time , is the mid age bees(crop receivers), more that those bees do no need to feed on the excisting parent colony stores and take part of stores away with them but that they already ve hold in them crop nectar which activates them wax glands , what i mean is that those are bees that already ready and sitting cause of no space either store their crop either draw comb , another personal belief is that those wax glads activate and are the main responisble reason for swarm fever

also bees i think wont risk in fly dangers them youngers and also young nurses hardly give up the brood

i do no want doubt any studies/researches all am saying is my personal reading and understanding workers life and also i do no know what exaclty they mean ''young'' maybe we mean the same with different words , i categorize adult workers on 4 phases that interact with each other and either push forward population or pull back : newly emerge bees - nurses - midage and foragers ,maybe a study talks about only for house/nurses bees and foragers dunno its kinda the same as other talks about Q years age and others categorize Q age in wave lays(more accurate designation) and sometimes both means the same but sometimes it doesnt, its the view each one of us have and thats why wrote my belief

 

[Erichalfbee]

I wasn't aware that it was "mainly" younger bees, but everything I can recall reading suggests that a large number of house bees will leave with swarms for precisely those reasons.

James

I’m repeating what I’ve read in notable publications.

 

[Sutty]

The research I read indicated bees of all ages leave with the swarm

 

[Erichalfbee]

The research I read indicated bees of all ages leave with the swarm

They do
Even drones go with swarms.
This is an interesting read about the low percentage of older scout bees in a swarm.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=h...tion&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari
And this is a great read
https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_Size_and_significance_of_the_swarm_fraction

 

[CosmoRossini]

That is what made the most sense to me. Have I got Snelgrove's method wrong then?

Edit: Also Pagden seems to be Queen with field-bees get a new home (but on the same site) while nurse-bees and brood are moved away.

What gives with the contradiction?

You understand Snelgrove correctly, method 1, when queen cells are NOT present.

It’s less a contradiction and more a different way. To prevent or delay swarming (as Snelgrove attempts) is to remove one of the components necessary for it to occur:
Queen
Sufficient brood
Sufficient nurse bees
Sufficient foraging bees

By removing the bulk of the brood and nurse bees to the top box you have removed the swarm opportunities from the bottom. They will build back up and can still swarm in 4 to 6 week, depending on how prolific your queen is. Snelgrove wasn’t working with our modern Buckfast strains that can reestablish their ability to swarm quickly.

The point of Snelgrove was to postpone swarming until after a nectar flow. It helps the bottom foragers stay strong by tricking the top box bees that become foragers, over the first weeks, into moving down into the bottom box.

After Snelgrove’s own book the WBKA published a good booklet by Wally Shaw that you’ll find helpful:
https://wbka.com/wp-content/uploads...to-Swarm-Control-2nd-edition-updatedJan21.pdf

 

[BaconWizard]

Nice, thanks.