Swarming signs or just paranoia?

[Nige.Coll]

Sun stayed out so we had an inspection.

The short hive towards the back of the photo had around 15 sealed and charged QCs. I imagine they would have swarmed sooner had the weather not been so bad.

Anyway, found the queen and popped her in a nuc with a couple of frames of brood.

Left 4 QCs in the hive and will let them battle it out. What's the done thing in terms of numbers?

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4 queen cells may lead to 3 swarms. They don't always battle it out in fact the workers can hold the queens in the cells to avoid the fighting. I only ever leave 2 max 1 if in a nuc. Not lost many swarms doing this, always the odd one that catches you out.
15 queen cells isn't what I would want to breed from. More than likely swarm again later in the year.
Removing the queen into a nuc with a few bees won't stop them wanting to swarm, it isn't a decision made by the queen she is just a slave not the ruler.
I hope you followed the instructions for making a nuc in the same apiary as most of the bees will return home to the parent colony and probably rob the nuc blind after.

What was the brood area like ? loads of brood or loads of stores ?

HM breeds queens so I see why none was the answer I suspect the colony would be rendered hopelessly queenless then a decent mated queen added.

Couple of bits of advice.
Pic the box for the bees not for you.
Don't breed from swarmy stock more hassle than it's worth.
Read ted hoopers book.

 

[Honeypi]

4 queen cells may lead to 3 swarms. They don't always battle it out in fact the workers can hold the queens in the cells to avoid the fighting. I only ever leave 2 max 1 if in a nuc. Not lost many swarms doing this, always the odd one that catches you out.
15 queen cells isn't what I would want to breed from. More than likely swarm again later in the year.
Removing the queen into a nuc with a few bees won't stop them wanting to swarm, it isn't a decision made by the queen she is just a slave not the ruler.
I hope you followed the instructions for making a nuc in the same apiary as most of the bees will return home to the parent colony and probably rob the nuc blind after.

What was the brood area like ? loads of brood or loads of stores ?

HM breeds queens so I see why none was the answer I suspect the colony would be rendered hopelessly queenless then a decent mated queen added.

Couple of bits of advice.
Pic the box for the bees not for you.
Don't breed from swarmy stock more hassle than it's worth.
Read ted hoopers book.

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback.

We need to swap the boxes but I'm waiting for another pair of hands as it's a bit bulky for one person to move at the moment.

Neither of the hives had much in the way of stores but plenty of brood. Would it be worth feeding them, or could that make them swarmier?

The hive with the QCs is the one we were hoping to convert to 14x12. With the bad weather we've not been able to get near them. With the sun out and temperatures looking like they're going to hold, we've put a 14x12 box above the super so they can start drawing it out. The super had brood in (took us a few tries to find the queen and put the excluder in after winter) so I didn't want to move this away from the brood box.

Oh and I've already read Ted Hooper's book. Thanks for the recommendation though!

 

[Poly Hive]

Normally one would leave one open and the youngest cell for them to calm down and raise a queen from.

When citing strength it if far more useful to state the frames of brood as that is the best method.

PH

 

[beeno]

Hi Honeypi,
I am with Nige on the QCs as for leaving just one. Also, as the colony is trying to requeen itself, the activity level goes down so it may be a big ask for them to draw new comb at the moment.

 

[bjosephd]

My hives were doing this the other day… loads of buzzing around the entrance and crawling up the front outside, but I was pretty sure it was just a new batch of foragers graduating all at once when the weather was good and orienting and sun bathing.

I looked through the hives yesterday and saw BIAS including eggs.

Local beek saw the video I took of it and said "that's a swarm".

I did not see the marked queens in either hive when I checked yesterday, but I still saw not a single queen cell (as far as this first my inexperienced eye could see), only the odd empty play cup.

But I am questioning my observations now… surely there would be no eggs if they had swarmed? Doesn't the queen go off lay to thin down to fly?

Also, I thought hives would build a good few queen cells if they are making swarm preps? Surely they don't try it with one single cell?! Surely the fact I saw zero queen cells 10 days ago or yesterday is also pretty good proof?

Maybe I should go in again today or tomorrow with a local beekeeper with a second set of eyes to make sure and make AS if necessary?

I'm reluctant to mess around in their homes again so soon though.

Although it would be nice to at least spot my old marked queens

Thoughts?

Thanks…

(sorry to hijack thread, but my issue is somewhat similar)

(clear crown board would be handy… might spot HM if I was lucky… but alas, can't see through wood!)

 

[BeeJayBee]

My hives were doing this the other day… loads of buzzing around the entrance and crawling up the front outside, but I was pretty sure it was just a new batch of foragers graduating all at once when the weather was good and orienting and sun bathing.

I looked through the hives yesterday and saw BIAS including eggs.

Local beek saw the video I took of it and said "that's a swarm".

Is the video online somewhere?

 

[bjosephd]

'fraid not… I've withdrawn from all the social meeeedya

 

[misterbee82]

What I have been brought as far as information is they've got to have a suitable reason to swarm. You probably already know this but those examples are generally not enough space for brood, or no space for honey production. Other problems that can have them leave the hive are mites. Typically not varoa, it's usually tracheal mites. From the information I've read they don't normally swarm for that, they walk a straight line going away from the hive.

 

[snelgrove]

What I have been brought as far as information is they've got to have a suitable reason to swarm. You probably already know this but those examples are generally not enough space for brood, or no space for honey production. Other problems that can have them leave the hive are mites. Typically not varoa, it's usually tracheal mites. From the information I've read they don't normally swarm for that, they walk a straight line going away from the hive.

Carnt say I have heard of that, so they walked the line, not music and bees again

 

[bjosephd]

I guess I'll just have to have another look sometime... just worried if I leave it then I may miss a virgin cast if they did indeed swarm and if there are more than one queen cell in there.

But I honestly didn't see a single queen cell charged or sealed. All I saw was the odd empty play cup.

So do I pi$$ them off immediately again? Or just hang in there and check them next week.

 

[snelgrove]

I guess I'll just have to have another look sometime... just worried if I leave it then I may miss a virgin cast if they did indeed swarm and if there are more than one queen cell in there.

But I honestly didn't see a single queen cell charged or sealed. All I saw was the odd empty play cup.

So do I pi$$ them off immediately again? Or just hang in there and check them next week.

Don't worry about upsetting them, shake each frame clear of bees leave one unsealed cell or sealed and destroy all others, close down and leave alone for 3 weeks. virgin should belaying. when checking for cells blow bees about which shows up charged cells

 

[Erichalfbee]

bjosephd
Doesn't the queen go off lay to thin down to fly?
I'm afraid you can't bet on it.

Did you shake the bees off the frames to check for queen cells?

If you did and didn't spot any then have some confidence in what you saw. If you analyse and question what you did this way after every inspection you'll end up having nightmares about bees and go mad!!!
Believe me.......I know

 

[bjosephd]

Mad indeed! Totally

And now the risk of over shaking a much needed queen in her cell if I inspect again!

Ahhh

 

[snelgrove]

Mad indeed! Totally

And now the risk of over shaking a much needed queen in her cell if I inspect again!

Ahhh

Find a nice cell with rough uneven surface, brush bees off if necessary and make sure no other cells are on that frame, shake all others

 

[mjt68]

I guess I'll just have to have another look sometime... just worried if I leave it then I may miss a virgin cast if they did indeed swarm and if there are more than one queen cell in there.

But I honestly didn't see a single queen cell charged or sealed. All I saw was the odd empty play cup.

So do I pi$$ them off immediately again? Or just hang in there and check them next week.

I'm sure you're getting lots more advice than you know what to do with but if you do go in tomorrow or the next day, see if you can see eggs standing on end. This means that your queen was there recently. There's nothing like finding your marked queen to put your mind at ease though!

 

[bjosephd]

Yes thankyou.

It would be nice to see that marked queen and be sure I can find no queen cells. Or do an AS safe in the knowledge 'it is time'.

She was crazy fat when I saw her 10 days ago. She certainly didn't look like she was in any state to fly!

I think maybe I just have to get in tomorrow and be sure with both hives.

Both queens are last year's queens, so this is their first season and both have a second brood box of foundation above them to move into sans exluder if they choose.

Thanks for the help people.

Any more thoughts always helpful.

Wish me luck!

 

[beeno]

Yes thankyou.



Both queens are last year's queens, so this is their first season and both have a second brood box of foundation above them to move into sans exluder if they choose.
Thanks for the help people.

Any more thoughts always helpful.

Wish me luck!

As you did ask. If the queen was short of space to lay in then she needs drawn combs not foundation to prevent swarm preparations, which of course is not always possible early in the season.
You need to go in for your own peace of mind. At least you will have good weather so take your time and be methodical. Good luck.

 

[bjosephd]

Looonggg slloooowww methodical inspection of two hives...

done

and...

done

 

[bjosephd]

So...

...at the weekend this happened...

https://vimeo.com/165435731

So lay your bets… a swarming/swarm-pending hive? Or just happy bees stretching their wings and legs on the first sunny day?

 

[bjosephd]

Ok ok... nobody's asking... haha...

So both colonies were full of BIAS... so looking through it appeared that SOMEBODY was laying eggs... and it certainly wasn't the chicken... she was busy dusting herself in the sun.

One of the hives the bees were crawling out over the edges of even the very new second BB as they were in there drawing comb.

So sllooowwwly went through each and found both queens (1 in each obviously)... caged them and put them safely out of the way.

I then went through every single frame, shook off all the bees, and checked for anything that looked vaguely queen cell like.

Not a sausage.

A handful of play cups. None of them charged - empty.

Put them all back together, walked the queens back into the top hole bee 'escape' and shut them up and am now leaving them the hell alone for the next 7 days... they've had enough poking around in.

Hopefully won't get rained off next week... don't think my nerves could cope!

Thanks for your help and support people.

So yep, that crazy busyness in the video (above) is nought but happy bees on a sunny day finally getting out of the house!

BJD