Swarm into already colonised box is this possible?

[Ivor Kemp]

Yesterday afternoon I noticed thousands of bees sitting on the front of a nucleus box which had previously contained a cast swarm I had collected on Saturday, very locally, which was only filling about two seams of the six frames within.

Thinking it was this cast swarm again making a move I checked in the box and saw it was now absolutely packed with bees, so much so that it seemed likely that the ones on the front had no room to get in.

I transferred the whole lot to a new hive about 6m away and fed.

They all seemed happy this morning apart from about 20-30 bees that were milling round the old site.

The only explanation I've got was that a swarm from who knows where decided to take up residence in this nuc box even though it was occupied, albeit with a weak colony.

Has this happened to anyone else and is this a viable explanation? What happens to the two Queens? There appeared to be no conflict between any of the worker bees either last night or this morning! Given that the cast swarm I collected was very local is it feasible that a prime swarm, from the same colony the cast swarm had come from, found and joined them?

 

[WingCommander]

Happened to me a few weeks ago and I posted on here too!

Mine was a swarm into a weak colony in a nuc. Quickly swapped into a brood box and they seem happy. About to inspect in 5...

 

[Fatbee]

Yep and to me - due to the queen marking I realised it was a disappeared A/S that I had done - she re-swarmed about 10 foot and must have killed the emcumbant queen in the existing colony which was a smallish nuc I had kept for a bit of insurance. However, no happy ending - she re-swarmed - on one queen cell which I thought was probably a supercedure cell due to the upset/upheaval in the colony. To be honest I will be glad to see the back of her! Strange because she came from a non-swarmy stock - two other colonies from same line have behaved.
So, now have a depleted nuc which I will have to merge in to anothe colony once I see if there is a queen in there - don't want any of her bloodstock left around!

 

[Ivor Kemp]

Fascinating. Thanks for your answers.

 

[beeno]

Yep and to me - due to the queen marking I realised it was a disappeared A/S that I had done - she re-swarmed about 10 foot and must have killed the emcumbant queen in the existing colony which was a smallish nuc I had kept for a bit of insurance. However, no happy ending - she re-swarmed - on one queen cell which I thought was probably a supercedure cell due to the upset/upheaval in the colony. To be honest I will be glad to see the back of her! Strange because she came from a non-swarmy stock - two other colonies from same line have behaved.
So, now have a depleted nuc which I will have to merge in to anothe colony once I see if there is a queen in there - don't want any of her bloodstock left around!

Hi Fatbee,
How long did the second swarm stay in the hive? Were you feeding and did they clear all the stores out before they left? How much time elapsed between A/S disappearing and reappearing in the nuc? Very strange carry on!

 

[Stiffy]

Yesterday afternoon I noticed thousands of bees sitting on the front of a nucleus box which had previously contained a cast swarm I had collected on Saturday, very locally, which was only filling about two seams of the six frames within.

Thinking it was this cast swarm again making a move I checked in the box and saw it was now absolutely packed with bees, so much so that it seemed likely that the ones on the front had no room to get in.

I transferred the whole lot to a new hive about 6m away and fed.

They all seemed happy this morning apart from about 20-30 bees that were milling round the old site.

The only explanation I've got was that a swarm from who knows where decided to take up residence in this nuc box even though it was occupied, albeit with a weak colony.

Has this happened to anyone else and is this a viable explanation? What happens to the two Queens? There appeared to be no conflict between any of the worker bees either last night or this morning! Given that the cast swarm I collected was very local is it feasible that a prime swarm, from the same colony the cast swarm had come from, found and joined them?

I would be interested to know if there are two queens as this would then confirm two swarms?
I would suggest that the original hive didn't swarm properly and the first 'cast' swarm was then joined by the remainder of the bees, making up the swarm.
Always happy and invariably am, to be proven wrong though
S

 

[BeeJayBee]

Swarm into already colonised box is this possible?

Seems to be happening quite often this year, well, at least a few times! http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=29673

 

[WingCommander]

I inspected yesterday. Other than being a bit chaotic as I didn't have sufficient frames when I moved from nuc to brood box and having to use super frames and super foundation in brood frames so lots of wild comb it all looks good in there. Saw the queen but didn't mark her as she was fast as lightning - amusingly quick and devious - whichever way I held the frame she went to the other side!

Only one queen found so my old one has been dispatched but instead of a weak, barely surviving hive I now have a thriving one!

 

[Fatbee]

Beeno,
First A/S went between 2 to 5 days. I think I was a little late in doing it because there was sealed queen cells when I split.
I only realised the 'invader' was in new nuc about 10 days later because she was the only red marked queen that I had. She re-swarmed about 4 weeks I would think. I had been feeding some light syrup - maybe this was a reason? And yes had taken stores but had left enough for those bees that stayed.

 

[Fatbee]

Beeno,
First A/S went between 2 to 5 days. I think I was a little late in doing it because there was sealed queen cells when I split.
I only realised the 'invader' was in new nuc about 10 days later because she was the only red marked queen that I had. She re-swarmed about 4 weeks I would think. I had been feeding some light syrup - maybe this was a reason? And yes had taken stores but had left enough for those bees that stayed.

 

[Ivor Kemp]

I would be interested to know if there are two queens as this would then confirm two swarms?
I would suggest that the original hive didn't swarm properly and the first 'cast' swarm was then joined by the remainder of the bees, making up the swarm.
Always happy and invariably am, to be proven wrong though
S

Unfortunately this incident did not end happily which would suggest there were two swarms and two Queens.

Given that there was no room in the nuc box after the 'second swarm' arrived, I moved everything at dusk into a proper hive gently moving the existing frames in the nuc box into the new brood box, brushing those on the side of the nuc box in and even using a platform to tip any stragglers onto and they all went in the new hive.

By the afternoon of the next day there was carnage on the grass of the front of the hive with hundreds of dead bees and none returning to the original site!

It would appear that the second swarm disposed of the weaker first colony including Queen No.1.

Nothing else could I have done though. I haven't disturbed this hive now apart from feeding them. Didn't seem much point.

 

[Stiffy]

Unfortunately this incident did not end happily which would suggest there were two swarms and two Queens.

Given that there was no room in the nuc box after the 'second swarm' arrived, I moved everything at dusk into a proper hive gently moving the existing frames in the nuc box into the new brood box, brushing those on the side of the nuc box in and even using a platform to tip any stragglers onto and they all went in the new hive.

By the afternoon of the next day there was carnage on the grass of the front of the hive with hundreds of dead bees and none returning to the original site!

It would appear that the second swarm disposed of the weaker first colony including Queen No.1.

Nothing else could I have done though. I haven't disturbed this hive now apart from feeding them. Didn't seem much point.

How sad, they must have been checking out the Nuc box at almost the same time. I would have thought that as both were in 'swarm' mode that it would have been the queens that would have had to fight it out, but obviously not and just goes to show the allegiance they can have to a queen.
It would be interesting to know if the swarm that prevails has an old queen?
S