Supersedure? Help please.

[Beanwood]

OK, I need to ask a question please

My nice strong, newly acquired nuc was moved from a national to a 14x12 over the past 5 weeks. All was going well, they've drawn lots of nice new comb using the Bailey comb exchange method (OK - maybe it wasn't EXACTLY right, but it seemed to do the trick). So, they now have 8 frames of drawn comb, and have been going well - up to around 6 sides of brood at various stages, and plenty of stores (They still had access to the old frames through the QX)

Anyway....

Weather being what it is, Sunday just gone, I had the first chance of inspection for 8 days No problem - lots of lovely gentle bees - but then it started to rain, so I finished up a bit quickly, removing the wild comb from the bottom of the old national frames, and called it a day. 45 minutes later when the sun came out OH had a quick look at the old wax - and asked "Isn't that a QC?" Aaaarrrrggghhhh - Instant panic when I saw the capped QC, .
More panic when I realised it wasn't actually capped any more - and had on closer inspection clearly been chewed very neatly to allow an exit.

So - tonight with trepidation I've opened them up again. Numbers don't appear to have reduced. There are what look like 2 supersedure cells (Both now capped) which I hadn't seen on Sunday (Too many bees, too much rain).
I've checked, and brood numbers are down to 1.5 frames, but not all central - a bit like they've been hatching out, but not been replaced yet

So, somehow I think I've lost the original queen, but fortunately and presumably the new hatched virgin queen will be off getting mated shortly, and will start laying eggs in just over a week.

My question is, what would the knowledgeable members of the forum do in my position?
1) Leave well alone - the bees know what they're doing.
2) Remove the two frames with QC's on, and raise them in a nuc with attendant bees obviously,
3) Remove the two frames with QC's on, and raise them in a nuc with attendant bees, but replace the frames with a frame from my other nuc (Eggs and larvae) to check if they really are queenless - theory being if they are, they'll raise some more emergency cells?

My inclination is 1, but these bees have been good to me so far, and I don't want to kill them all off in my first season.

Any helpful comments or guidance gratefully received.

 

[Poly Hive]

If I think I have lost a queen I want to KNOW if that is the case so I put in a test frame and from that info, which is actually evident after 12 hours, I make decisions.

Lots of white in the relevant cells... before you ask...

PH

 

[meidel]

If I think I have lost a queen I want to KNOW if that is the case so I put in a test frame and from that info, which is actually evident after 12 hours, I make decisions.

Lots of white in the relevant cells... before you ask...

PH

If the bees are in swarm mode wouldn't they make QCs anyway even if there's a queen?

 

[Polyanwood]

Queen cells they make as part of swarm preparation are different from the emergency queen cells they make when you put in a test frame and the hive is queenless. Emergency queen cells are bent and look stumpy and are more often on the face of the frame rather than at the bottom and sides.

 

[Beanwood]

If I think I have lost a queen I want to KNOW if that is the case so I put in a test frame and from that info, which is actually evident after 12 hours, I make decisions.

Lots of white in the relevant cells... before you ask...

PH

Thanks for the reply, but just a little too cryptic for me

I guess you mean if I put in another frame of eggs/larvae, there'd loads of royal jelly being fed?

The cells are as Polyanwood describes - bent and stumpy, on the face of the frame

 

[Polyanwood]

Those are emergency queen cells. Those are most common when the queen is accidentally suddenly killed, or when a new beekeeper ( did this myself so bear with me) sees queen cells and destroys them and perhaps destroys them again, not realising that the bees have already swarmed. Then the bees have to make emergency queen cells.

You have no queen. I think that emergency queen cells diagnostic.

Not ideal, but you need to reduce the number to one or two and then wait very patiently.

 

[Beanwood]

Those are emergency queen cells. Those are most common when the queen is accidentally suddenly killed, or when a new beekeeper ( did this myself so bear with me) sees queen cells and destroys them and perhaps destroys them again, not realising that the bees have already swarmed. Then the bees have to make emergency queen cells.

You have no queen. I think that emergency queen cells diagnostic.

Not ideal, but you need to reduce the number to one or two and then wait very patiently.

Thanks - those were my thoughts too. I've only got two QC's as far as I can see, so option 1 it is I suppose - just let them get on with it. Best hope - early hatched queen may get mated and come good
Oh -exciting and nervous times ahead I think.

 

[Beanwood]

Hmmmm...

Frustrating business this beekeeping lark

There's still no sign of eggs being laid, and I have a second hive (Hereinafter referred to as #2) in the same position - Virgin queen in there somewhere, but now no brood remaining, and rain forecast for the next week at least...

The 'swarm' I captured last week was probably a cast from my own - now in a nuc box, but not inspected because of the consistent and persistent rain.

In hive #2 it looks as though the bees are keeping two swarm cells sealed (Darker brown wax on the ends) I've read somewhere they can do this as a self preservation - queen in waiting type thing. I have perhaps ignorantly removed to all but two QC's from #2.

We have swallows nesting in the garage - 75 yards from the hives - and I wonder if they're just picking off my queens when they do manage to get out ?

I guess my question should be, how long can I leave a hive without a mated queen? These are not strong colonies - both were fairly good nucs before going into hives, but they've only retained those sort of numbers, and haven't grown significantly.

Any suggestions please? (Even if it's just hang on another week)

 

[Walrus]

Hi, when I moved from National to 14x12 using Bailey Comb Change I ended up with QCs in the bottom (National) box once I'd moved the queen up to the top and put on a QE between the two. I knew the queen was there in the top, 'cos I saw her, so I just destroyed the QCs in the bottom box and once the brood in the bottom was hatched 3 weeks later I just shook the bees into the top box, got rid of the bottom one and all was well.

If you had moved your queen to the 14x12 box maybe you had the same situation as me?

If you have a QE between the boxes & the QCs are only in the bottom box, maybe the queen is in the 14x12 but not laying due to bad weather? I would have a seriously determined look for her (is she marked?). Sorry, can't tell if you have QCs in the top box too.....

 

[mbc]

Also make sure you havent got a virgin trapped above a qx unable to get out and mate

 

[Beanwood]

All back on single boxes now - no Qx involved at all.

Just Virgin queens, and no brood..

 

[Beanwood]

After a quick check for stores yesterday, hive #1 are still EXTREMELY grumpy (Collected another two stings )

Hive #2 seems quieter, but I don't want to pull the hive apart in case there's a newly mated queen starting to lay.

My collected swarm is still in the nuc box, and the queen has just started to lay thanks goodness, so I think it may end up being at least one unite.

Is there any 'rule' (Of thumb or otherwise) regarding relative size of colonies to unite - i.e. If the Q- is much large than the the Q+, does it matter?