Supers above or below brood box over winter?

[lizzie-drippin]

Hello all

I’m sure this has been discussed many times but what is the consensus?

Last winter I had tried the super below the brood box overwinter and it seemed to work well.

thanks

LD

 

[elainemary]

Hello all

I’m sure this has been discussed many times but what is the consensus?

Last winter I had tried the super below the brood box overwinter and it seemed to work well.

thanks

LD

Consensus is there are mixed views. Pros and cons to both. Best thing is to try both options and learn from the experience and see what works best for you.

 

[lizzie-drippin]

Consensus is there are mixed views. Pros and cons to both. Best thing is to try both options and learn from the experience and see what works best for you.

What are the pros and cons for each way?

 

[enrico]

What are the pros and cons for each way?

full supers above, part filled uncapped below

 

[The Poot]

Super below - bees move the honey up (best if uncapped) and the super can be removed a week or so later, or left in place to act as a baffle for wind through the Winter. Remove in early Spring.
Super above - less work for the bees (no qx) but the queen will lay in the super, so come Spring you’ll be on the dreaded “brood and a half”. Not really an issue as the queen will move down and you can fit a qx so it serves as a super again.
Its horses for courses.

 

[lizzie-drippin]

Super below - bees move the honey up (best if uncapped) and the super can be removed a week or so later, or left in place to act as a baffle for wind through the Winter. Remove in early Spring.
Super above - less work for the bees (no qx) but the queen will lay in the super, so come Spring you’ll be on the dreaded “brood and a half”. Not really an issue as the queen will move down and you can fit a qx so it serves as a super again.
Its horses for courses.

Why no qx? If super above?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why no qx? If super above?

in a cold winter, bees won't move up leaving the queen behind below the QX, thus you have a colony dying of starvation within inches of plentiful stores.

 

[lizzie-drippin]

in a cold winter, bees won't move up leaving the queen behind below the QX, thus you have a colony dying of starvation within inches of plentiful stores.

Ah, Ok. But you would put a qx below a brood box if the super was on the bottom though?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Ah, Ok. But you would put a qx below a brood box if the super was on the bottom though?

no

 

[lizzie-drippin]

One of the reasons I thought the super was bets on the borrow was so fondant could be placed on the crown board directly above the brood box and not directly above the super.

 

[The Poot]

One of the reasons I thought the super was bets on the borrow was so fondant could be placed on the crown board directly above the brood box and not directly above the super.

The bees, as Winter gets going will move into the upper part of the hive - as that is where the warmth is. Also that’s where they will store most of their food. It doesn’t make any difference if that upper most box is a brood box (with a super beneath or not) or a super left on for food stores.
So you will effectively add fondant above the cluster by putting it on the crown board.
The only place for queen excluders for the Winter, is your shed - unless you place it above the upper most box to spread fondant on. That way the fondant is more easily accessible to the bees. You may have a crown board with a space wide enough to accommodate fondant, if not you can use an eke.
Ensure good insulation above the crown board, no gaps, no feed holes left open.

 

[Erichalfbee]

One of the reasons I thought the super was bets on the borrow was so fondant could be placed on the crown board directly above the brood box and not directly above the super.

If you have stores in the brood box AND a super of stores you certainly don’t need fondant as well.

 

[enrico]

Basic knowledge for those that don't understand the principles
Brood is layed immediately under any food that is stored.
Food is stored at the top of the hive moving downwards as more comes in
The brood moves down with it staying below the food.
As the brood eases over the winter the food will start to be eaten from the bottom.
As winter progresses the bees move up the hive.
The reason is that as stores diminish the warmest part of the hive is at the top
As spring starts brood will start to be layed under any remaining food
If you put unripe honey under the brood box at any time they will spend energy removing it from the bottom of the hive to the top for the reasons above.
It depends how much food is eaten over winter as to where the brood is going to be layed in the spring.
Essentially there are no drones in early spring so a queen excluder can easily be inserted and ensure the queen is underneath.

 

[4degreesWest]

Super below - bees move the honey up (best if uncapped) and the super can be removed a week or so later, or left in place to act as a baffle for wind through the Winter.

I was going to start a thread to ask about what to do with part filled frames after my final extraction but I think this answers my question. If I put the part filled frames in a super under the brood box they’ll empty them for me?

 

[The Poot]

I was going to start a thread to ask about what to do with part filled frames after my final extraction but I think this answers my question. If I put the part filled frames in a super under the brood box they’ll empty them for me?

They will. Search “nadiring” or “nadir” on here for threads explaining it.
They’ll move the honey up into the top (brood) box, leaving the super empty below - unless the brood box is also filled with honey or syrup, in which case the queen will start the Winter in the super and move up as the stores are depleted.

 

[4degreesWest]

Ok. I hadn’t thought of the Queen being able to go in there. If I’m treating for Varroa, presumably I can just remove the super for the duration of the treatment?

 

[The Poot]

Ok. I hadn’t thought of the Queen being able to go in there. If I’m treating for Varroa, presumably I can just remove the super for the duration of the treatment?

You shouldn’t need to remove it. Assuming the honey will be used by the bees through the Winter, or will be stored in the brood box once moved up from the super beneath.
The only consideration is the varroa treatment “tainting” the super wax - what treatment will you be using?
If vaping there is no issue at all. Others can advise on the other treatments (I don’t use them).

 

[Nick Lang]

Ok. I hadn’t thought of the Queen being able to go in there. If I’m treating for Varroa, presumably I can just remove the super for the duration of the treatment?

Just out of interest....when you remove a super to treat for varroa...how long can you keep a super off for?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Just out of interest....when you remove a super to treat for varroa...how long can you keep a super off for?

The five minutes it takes to vape the bees

 

[Peter Welch]

Talking about leaving supers on, for example Nadiring over winter or even finishing off part filled supers in September, using Apivar for 6-8 weeks is the question. Instructions say not to be used if honey supers are in place due to toxic residue in honey and also in wax. Does this mean waiting until Apivar strips are removed before Nadiring? Presumably any part filled supers should be taken off before Apivar or Apistan is introduced. Then should any over wintered Demareed deeps put on top of the stack not be used for honey either?