Super under or over brood box for winter?

[Do224]

As the title says really...I’m planning to leave the bees with a super and not sure whether to leave it on top (minus the queen excluder) or move it underneath...

It’s my first winter keeping bees...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Too late to put it under now, in fact, too late to be fiddling around with the bees at all, just remove the QX and leave them to it if you think they need the extra stores

 

[Do224]

Too late to put it under now, in fact, too late to be fiddling around with the bees at all, just remove the QX and leave them to it if you think they need the extra stores

Appreciate it’s not ideal but I’ve been away for a couple months.

I’ve also got a couple of small colonies that I think need dummying down with insulation board as well (they’re in full size brood boxes). Was planning to do it this afternoon...weather is very settled here...no wind and about 10Celsius....might be my best chance to do it before winter.

Surely better to do it than not? I’ll obviously be as quick as I can...

 

[Erichalfbee]

Surely better to do it than not? I’ll obviously be as quick as I can...

Too late because what you’re doing is getting the bees to move the stores from the nadired shallow into the brood. Take the QX out.

 

[user 20297]

Appreciate it’s not ideal but I’ve been away for a couple months.

I’ve also got a couple of small colonies that I think need dummying down with insulation board as well (they’re in full size brood boxes). Was planning to do it this afternoon...weather is very settled here...no wind and about 10Celsius....might be my best chance to do it before winter.

Surely better to do it than not? I’ll obviously be as quick as I can...

The dummying down sounds like less than optimal but worth a few minutes' pain for few months gain for the bees.

 

[Do224]

The dummying down sounds like less than optimal but worth a few minutes' pain for few months gain for the bees.

I know, the situation generally is less than optimal but it is what it is. Just want to do the best I can for the bees...

 

[user 20297]

I know, the situation generally is less than optimal but it is what it is. Just want to do the best I can for the bees..

...and you're right to follow that instinct. I only say "less than optimal" so that older and wiser folk maybe recognise that I'm aware that it's so.

 

[Do224]

Given that it sounds like I shouldn’t do any form of inspection, I won’t be able to assess my colonies stores (it’s my first year so hefting is probably not going to give me much of an idea...).

The bees have had 2:1 syrup for about the past 5 weeks. Should I be taking the feeders off and offering them fondant now...?

 

[Murox]

There are some typical/expected hive weights written down somewhere on the forum threads so you can do a search to help you. How many litres of syrup have you actually given?

 

[user 20297]

Given that it sounds like I shouldn’t do any form of inspection, I won’t be able to assess my colonies stores (it’s my first year so hefting is probably not going to give me much of an idea...).

The bees have had 2:1 syrup for about the past 5 weeks. Should I be taking the feeders off and offering them fondant now...?

Your circumstances being what they are, I think it's worth you having a look whilst doing the least intervention possible. Your main purpose should be to see what amount of stores they have and that should be possible by slightly lifting a few frames which are located away from the centre of the brood. If there's a good number of empty frames with few bees on them, I woulld remove and dummy.

If they are short, you might get them to keep taking thick syrup if it can be insulated from the cold. You could put an upturned, transparent container of fondant over the feed hole and if you can see bees through it in a week or so you'll know they are tucking in.

From novice experience I wouldn't trust they have enough without at least having quickly seen something and hefting is going to be difficult if the hives are at different stages of expansion.

 

[Murox]

There are some typical/expected hive weights written down somewhere on the forum threads so you can do a search to help you. How many litres of syrup have you actually given?

Hive weight approximation

 

[Do224]

Cheers all...I did go down this afternoon and dummied down the smaller colonies with insulation board. I didn’t inspect for stores as it was still pretty cold and the bees were not pleased to see me...

I couldn’t say how much syrup they’ve had...I’ve just had a family member topping up the feeders every few days whilst I’ve been away. The temp is set to stay at or below 10 Celsius here now so I think syrup feeding is over...

Would it be prudent to feed with fondant throughout the winter starting now? If so, how shall I go about it? A tub over the crown board hole as described by Beebee.....or rolled over a queen excluder or another method? I’ve no experience of this at all so please spell it out for me

Do I leave an empty super on over winter to allow feeding of fondant or is there another way? Presumably if a super is left on it’s just more space the bees have to heat...

 

[Erichalfbee]

To

Cheers all...I did go down this afternoon and dummied down the smaller colonies with insulation board. I didn’t inspect for stores as it was still pretty cold and the bees were not pleased to see me...

I couldn’t say how much syrup they’ve had...I’ve just had a family member topping up the feeders every few days whilst I’ve been away. The temp is set to stay at or below 10 Celsius here now so I think syrup feeding is over...

Would it be prudent to feed with fondant throughout the winter starting now? If so, how shall I go about it? A tub over the crown board hole as described by Beebee.....or rolled over a queen excluder or another method? I’ve no experience of this at all so please spell it out for me

Do I leave an empty super on over winter to allow feeding of fondant or is there another way? Presumably if a super is left on it’s just more space the bees have to heat...

feeding fondant

 

[Beegarden]

Do I leave an empty super on over winter to allow feeding of fondant or is there another way? Presumably if a super is left on it’s just more space the bees have to heat...

Dani's example is great. My measuring is never precise enough , so I have an eke ( a square frame of wood about 6 cm high, from memory, from all beekeeping stores) above my crown board. I have a piece of perspex over the crown board hole with two thick squares of sheep's wool stuffed inside the eke. I also have a square of Kingspan (like Dani's pic) in the recess of my hive roof. When I want to feed fondant, I just have to lift the wool carefully, and slide fondant in an upside down takeaway container to replace the perspex). Good luck. NB, my crownboard is transparent, so that I can peep at the girls now and then.

 

[Erichalfbee]

That's 50mm Kingspan. Sits on the crown board. My hives all have deep roofs so no super needed

 

[BoStor]

Have two Brood Boxes and was going to exchange the original very heavy bottom one for the top one this week on advice. It will not involve a lot of disturbance so is the advice to make the change good?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why fiddle around, if they are settled as they are, leave them

 

[Boston Bees]

Have two Brood Boxes and was going to exchange the original very heavy bottom one for the top one this week on advice. It will not involve a lot of disturbance so is the advice to make the change good?

The bees have presumably spent quite a while organising the honey exactly where they want it. With all due respect, why would you (or your adviser) think you know better?

Plus, if there is a sphere of brood spread across the two boxes, you will split that brood and end up with half of it right at the bottom of the hive where it will very likely die.

So, no. S**t advice.

EDIT I guess the only exception would be if you have only just added the top box in the last couple of weeks (which would have been an odd thing to do at this time of year), and the top box is basically empty.

 

[BoStor]

The bees have presumably spent quite a while organising the honey exactly where they want it. With all due respect, why would you (or your adviser) think you know better?
Plus, if there is a sphere of brood spread across the two boxes, you will split that brood and end up with half of it right at the bottom of the hive where it will very likely die.So, no. S**t advice.

Thanks very much, your response makes sense and proof that if you don't understand advice from an "experienced beekeeper" don't necessarily follow it.

 

[Mint Bee]

Do224,

feeding fondant could help maintain the bees overwinter, but if relatives have been feeding the bees syrup, depends how much syrup has been taken as to whether essential or belt and braces. Over feeding can lead to brood blocking in the spring which will restrict initial expansion of the colony after winter, so needs to be looking out for this during first 2022 inspections.

You haven't mentioned why you were unavailable for 3 month, so I hope it wasn't for any serious reason. If it was for work or holiday and this will be a regular occurrence I think that you need to consider whether beekeeping is a long term hobby that fits with your current circumstances.
The majority of people on this forum perform regular inspections and are available to monitor the health of their bees to prevent them becoming a problem for other beekeepers or general public.
Please ignore last paragraph if inapplicable or inappropriate